Forgiveness in Mushing

Testament

After reading the Apology to Darinelle thread over a couple of times, it had brought up a point I've mentioned here at various other times. Partially because it's the hill I'm likely forever going to die on, and partly because it's apart of my interest when it comes from how we operate in our daily lives as human beings beyond the confines of a computer and then within it. Makes me think I should been a sociologist, but then again, I doubt there's a lot of money in it.

So while I've re-read that thread over and over, I keep coming back to the same issue I think this hobby really has. Or has had and will continue to have. And maybe this is just indicative to anything on the internet where people generally overall have less of a filter than they would were it otherwise. While I'm loathe to quote anything Anonymous has said or done, their tagline of 'we do not forgive, and we do not forget' seems to ring so true and so hard for this hobby that I can't help but wonder if this is just apart of the standard daily life of your average, run of the mill mush player or something else. I'm not a psychologist or sociologist to give a more educated opinion on it. But it is something I've wanted to have a conversation about.

What is it about mushing, or RPing online that makes it so easy for us to screw up? Sometimes badly. And when it does, why does it often seem like those people find themselves blacklisted from the hobby? To note, I'm not defending the actions of anyone, nor am I saying whatever someone did was so bad or so horrible, but when I observe how we interact with each other in these instances, it's not very often we're able to move past them. Or if we do, it's simply easier to ignore someone's existence. And it's not just mushing that I see this in. Playing anything in a collaborative fashion online you see it. Thought perhaps you see it less on actual video games because you don't see those same people day in and day out. It always seems a touch more personal in mushing.

So I try to sort parts of it out. Is it because mushing tends to attract people who are socially damaged or stunted? Possible, but I feel like that's doing a disservice to the people who are perfectly functioning human beings who don't have any mental or emotional baggage. Is it simply the anonymity that the internet brings that brings out the worst in us? The list goes on, and the factors involved could be many.

But maybe I see a lot of the negatives because of how this site functions. Because while we all know what the Hogpit is for, there are times I take a step back and wonder, "Holy hell, we are a bunch of hateful and spiteful people, aren't we?" I wonder how much of it is truly honest, how much it is chest thumping, and how much is back-patting. This isn't so much a plea to be better to each other, because most of us are at the age where that kind of thing goes without saying.

What I'm asking, after that long-winded opening is: have you forgiven someone in this hobby? You don't have to be great friends with them now, but at least to the point where there's no animosity. Indifference, perhaps. You don't even have to list stories or names or anything.

Or are you just not the type? There's nothing wrong in that, inherently. Once you're screwed, fuck that person, no matter how much they may change. They did you dirty once, so screw them and the horse they rode in on.

Or have someone did a friend of yours wrong, and mob mentality takes effect?

Or were you the person that did the screwing up and how hard has it been for you recover from that? Did you have to hide who you were? Play a different game with a different user name or email?

There are so many different possibilities that I won't bother listing them all down, but I'm curious to see the responses and how they vary. If they vary.

Arkandel

@testament said in Forgiveness in Mushing:

What is it about mushing, or RPing online that makes it so easy for us to screw up? Sometimes badly. And when it does, why does it often seem like those people find themselves blacklisted from the hobby?

A number of things.

Internet anonymity is a big thing. It affects everyone even outside of the hobby, and things are said most people would never say to each other's face.
We're not the most socially adept crowd in general. I mean... we're not, on average.
Roleplaying makes it hard sometimes to separate our egos from our characters. On top of that some of us can't deal very well with either being more popular (or being rejected) even in the context of playing a game, dealing with pecking orders, etc.
The themes we often play are sensual, romantic, military or political - which compounded with the former can lead to or at least encourage some unhealthy attitudes.

But maybe I see a lot of the negatives because of how this site functions. Because while we all know what the Hogpit is for, there are times I take a step back and wonder, "Holy hell, we are a bunch of hateful and spiteful people, aren't we?" I wonder how much of it is truly honest, how much it is chest thumping, and how much is back-patting. This isn't so plea to better to each other, because most of us are at the age where that kind of thing goes without saying.

It is not. But we're far more likely to rant and attack someone who drew our ire that one time than to post something nice about that person we had a pleasant conversation with. That means over time more threads are created charged negatively than positively, at least on that forum.

Then again that provides an outlet, and things are aired instead of brewing privately in pages, making someone the target of discontent they might have no idea about let alone a floor to defend themselves on.

What I'm asking, after that long-winded opening is: have you forgiven someone in this hobby? You don't have to be great friends with them now, but at least to the point where there's no animosity. Indifference, perhaps. You don't even have to list stories or names or anything.

I'd like to say I forgive all the time but the (perhaps sad, I don't know) truth is I forget all the time. There are people I'm aware greatly drew my ire years earlier who, when I re-examined it rationally after a long period of time, I no longer really recalled any of the specifics. I was aware of the general gist but not just what it was - and at that point is it really worth it to hold a grudge?

On the other hand I do keep track, at least that way, of repeat offenders. If you've creeped on me once you won't get another chance; that doesn't mean I'll avoid and discredit you, but we won't ever have close IC relations again. The first time is a freebie, the second one would be on me.

Or have someone did a friend of yours wrong, and mob mentality takes effect?

That can happen. To be honest MSB has hardened me when it comes to bandwagons since I get PMed a fair bit, and I was fairly thick skinned to begin with. It's frustrating to see it when it happens though.

I'm more sensitive (to the extent that I am at all) when it's friends of mine being mistreated though. I don't invest in my own ego as much as I used to, yet it's difficult sometimes to really tell what happened when you only hear one half of the story - that is, from just one perspective.

Or were you the person that did the screwing up and how hard has it been for you recover from that? Did you have to hide who you were? Play a different game with a different user name or email?

I've fucked up, sure. Having said that I don't really hide who I am on most MU* simply because I do have friends I like to play with and it's always nice to run into them on a new MU*. I also really don't think I'm the type to not take 'no' for an answer; if anyone wanted to avoid me I'd pick up the hint pretty quick, especially since I won't try too hard or for too long to play with any one person before moving on.

One thing to consider here is that for MSB oldbies our identities are pretty much public record. Soft resets - rolling new alts - might hide the crazy temporarily but if I'm creeping on people long enough it's only a matter of time before everyone here knows it, and it will follow us basically forever. We got long memories.

Ganymede

I forgive easily, if forgiveness is moving on and not letting an incident affect me or get into my mind. I seldom forget, as I try to follow the maxim of learning from my mistakes.

I have screwed up many times. If you seek to alleviate the stress that may cause others, call attention to your error and take steps to fix it. And do not do it again.

Don’t ask me to forget what happened, though, because that won’t happen. And just because I pre-emptively bar you from a game I may be running does not mean I haven’t forgiven you. It means that I haven’t forgotten what happened, and I do not intend to let it happen again.

faraday

@arkandel said in Forgiveness in Mushing:

A number of things.

I think Ark hit it on the head for why the hobby is kind of messed up, socially-speaking. A tabletop RPG crew may get overly invested in their characters. A tabletop wargame crew may get overly competitive. But those people still have to look each other in the eyes week after week and (generally) get to know each other pretty well. Internet gaming doesn't have that very important social filter.

I've forgiven MUSH folks many times. Sometimes I tend to be a little too forgiving, actually, and just end up getting burned again in the same way by the same person. I'd choose that over endlessly holding grudges, but there's probably a happy middle ground I haven't found yet.

TNP

Personally, I think MSB is only a microcosm of the internet as a whole and there's no thing about this hobby that is in any way different. See 4chan for instance. Or any comment section. Further, I think the internet is just humanity in general with anonymity and what you see is what you get.

How does that apply to this thread? I think that it applies in the same exact way to forgiveness and forgetting. People don't forget. Ever. The phrase 'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.' was coined long before the internet was a thing. As for forgiveness...

Offline, there are repercussions for behavior that you can't escape. You also can't type 'quit' or put someone on an ignore list. You might 'forgive' someone in word, publicly, solely for the sake of social obligations and pressures. But they don't, not really. Not completely. I'm sure some particularly altruistic ones might but you'll also see the reasoning that forgiving someone is as much for yourself as for them so you're not carrying it around with you. It's arguable if that's truly forgiveness of that other person or just healthy selfishness.

Of course, it also depends on how close to someone you are. Speaking for myself, very, very few people online are close enough to me to truly affect me in some way which makes forgiveness kind of moot. That's not to say I'll ever forget what happened. Depending on what it is, they might be given the benefit of the doubt or a second chance or just ignored.

Aria

@faraday said in Forgiveness in Mushing:

I think Ark hit it on the head for why the hobby is kind of messed up, socially-speaking. A tabletop RPG crew may get overly invested in their characters. A tabletop wargame crew may get overly competitive. But those people still have to look each other in the eyes week after week and (generally) get to know each other pretty well. Internet gaming doesn't have that very important social filter.

^ Pretty much this. A lot of MUSHers behave as though they're sitting down at their weekly TT group, with the antics they engage in, the way they talk to people, the stuff they pull. But here's the thing about that: in your TT group, those people already know you. You have some kind of existing relationship beyond a scene or three in passing. They can see your expressions. They can hear your tone of voice. And because you're operating as a group (hopefully) working towards a common goal, all of these things combined are more likely to make you try to understand what someone is doing and why, or at least give them a pass if you don't.

On a game, you have none of those things. Moreover, on a particularly large game, it's very easy -- after one unpleasant interaction -- to simply never interact with that person again, or interact with them so infrequently that there's no reason to consider anything besides your initial impression. It's a disposable interaction, and the person behind it becomes disposable, too, with little recognition they're a person at all.

As for forgiveness? Yes, actually. Even recently, I've had people I dislike become friends. In fact, I now talk pretty regularly to... one of two people I've reported as a potential issue to staff? And made a point of informing Apostate of that fact when it happened months later. Every now and then there's a moment I presume they think is funny that still makes me cringe or grind my teeth, but the truth of the matter is.... well... sooner or later, I have that reaction to everybody. Including myself. People are annoying.

There are people I've done something to upset them (most often without realizing it) and they seem rather unwilling to let it go. There are people I'm too embarrassed to apologize to. There are people I've tried to hash things out with, only to be met in one instance with a statement that I'd apparently been upsetting them for months, that they hadn't told me why, that they had no intention of telling me why for the sake of keeping the peace (???), but that I should think about what I did that might have them so upset. There's another that seemed deeply offended by me quitting a PC despite their assurances to the contrary, my attempts to keep friendly communication open failed, and by the time I decided to pick up someone else that they had vague ties to and asked them if they'd be okay with that because I wanted to respect their feelings was accused of laying down some kind of conversational trap so I could report them to staff.

All of them pretty much go in the "avoid" pile for one reason or another -- sometimes to keep the peace, sometimes to preserve my sanity, sometimes because it's just not worth it. Would I call it forgiven? Ehhh, I dunno. Maybe? I don't bear them any ill will. I also don't really want to deal with them, though with some of those people, I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Then there are the people I will not forgive and do very much bear ill will towards. They're a very small category people. Most of them have done so much damage to various aspects of the gaming community that I presume it's malice. It might not be. Regardless of whether they're 'socially inept' or not, they're so toxic that I honestly don't care. They display deeply abusive patterns over the long-term and hurt people again. And again. And again. VASpider. DownwithOPP. Juerg. That guy Ryan that I mentioned in "Lies People Have Told About You." This woman Cat who I consider a horrid infection on the L5R community after watching her behavior poison four different games. At that point, no, I won't forgive them and I won't even consider it, because doing so doesn't do anyone any good. It only enables them to continue hurting other people, and my response to cries of "second chance" and "be the bigger person" effectively boil down to a very firm "No."

Albeit with more swearing, because it's me.

mietze

I have forgiven and been forgiven many many many times.

Especially when behavior only or primarily revolves around game stuff.

When it crosses lines into the individual/personal (such as stalking behavior, doxing behavior, ect) and when it shows a major character flaw (repeated incidences of cheating across many games, repeated incidences of attempting to stir up people against a latest target, or repeated incidences of unwelcome attention/pursuit of people with an unwillingness to hear or pay attention to the word no), then forgiveness becomes a moot point, because regardless of whether I hold affection for that person or if I did at one time, there is just not going to be trust there.

I also dont believe mush people to be uniquely strong grudge holders either. Maybe its just because I have a long history of being extremely involved in community and/or interest group volunteering, but as I have said many times, the worst drama on a mush that I've ever seen does not hold a candle to some of the middle tier drama I saw in the PTA and political orgs, Including territorialism, whisper campaigns, being spiteful to someone's face/behind their back, and even stealing money from people! There are plenty of people with unhealthy behavior problems and obsessions/attachments that glom onto volunteer groups as well. I'd say about the same percentage as mushing really, except for the impact can be a lot worse, because it is face to face, and if you think avoidance of dealing with problematic behavior on a /mush/ is bad...

Like seriously, the year before last year, when a long time much beloved political organizer locally raped a just turned 18 year old /at the state party gathering/, and was promptly removed from all posts/banned from our org, you still had many people loudly complaining about "but he does so much for the party, we cant lose that kind of talent". Sound familiar?

People are people everywhere. Mush people I think tend to be much more on the social/wanting to connect side of things than normal. It is an asset. But does it lead sometimes to hissing and spitting, yes.

Aria

@mietze said in Forgiveness in Mushing:

People are people everywhere. Mush people I think tend to be much more on the social/wanting to connect side of things than normal. It is an asset. But does it lead sometimes to hissing and spitting, yes.

I shouldn't be laughing at this. I really shouldn't. But given the number of cats we've fostered or TNRed or rescued or rehomed, and the fact that our Pasha unfailingly reacts to any other cat entering his home with a hissing bitch-fit that has now invariably become a joke in our house....

I am now imagining poor @Apos doing what @insomniac7809 has to do with our foster cats: carrying the latest player around the game in his arms for very limited 'supervised introductions' for a few weeks until we're pretty sure that the hissing and spitting isn't going to turn into fur flying and a trip to the emergency vet because a bit of claw embedded into someone's cheek got infected.

This is not a reasonable expectation in any possible way, but I cannot stop laughing at the idea of some poor staffer having to carry the equivalent of Fedora Man around a room full of nerds being like, "Now, now. He's just being a defensive jerk because he's new....."

Use the soothing voice, you guys. The soothing voice is the important part.

Goldfish

Forgiveness is my jam. The "Goldfish Grudge" is where my screen name comes from. I've said it before but I'll reframe it.

Everyone can have a bad day, week, month. In my case, my entire summer was just trash and the months preceding were not great either. (Fuck 2018) I don't think I did anything unforgivable. I know I got under people's skin, annoyed, whined, whatever. I was in a bad place and I didn't even know it at the time. If anyone is reading this and I did something unbecoming, I do apologize and I believe I am improving.

Some years ago, I had a personal meltdown that spilled into the hobby. That's my black mark and I'm gonna end it there.

I've been Mushing since roughly 2010 or so. So eight years. I do not want my entire time with this community to be defined by my rough patches and the bad habits and behavior that I become too weak to fight. So, in turn, I forgive easily. I afford others the same I would want for myself. I strive to treat others as I want to be treated in all things.

Add in the fact that I am forgetful and I will completely blank on why I'm 'supposed' to hate Person A this week.** Put in a dash of, 'this hobby is too fucking small to hate everyone in it if I want to keep playing and creating.' and you have the Goldfish Guidelines of Forgiveness. Only three players, that I have dealt with personally, are exempt from this. I won't play with them, period, as long as I recognize them. (I don't always know who is who and I prefer it that way. Keeps me unbiased)

**That forgetfulness has saved me countless times from toxic hate circlejerks.

Darinelle

Have I forgiven someone in this hobby? Goodness yes. LOTS of people. There were a lot of people who said and did really shitty things in Firan - both to me as a GM, and to each other where I as a GM saw it. It was a problem. Those people though - most of them weren't bad people, and pulled from a toxic environment I see them in a different light. I've enjoyed RPing with them in other places now (not limited to Arx) and interacting with them in other ways and they're better and good to be around and, in many cases, lovely to RP with. If you've done something to me and I literally can't remember it? I probably am willing to just clean the slate and start anew.

The people I haven't forgiven in this hobby (and really have no plans to) are twofold:

1 - People who took their attacks and their evil outside of the in-game shenanigans, or who attacked me as a person.
2 - People who I had (or have) to deal with on a regular basis for preying on other players.

This hobby has terrible people in it, much like every other hobby. We are not automatically exempt from this because we're geeks or nerds or whatever you want to call yourselves (I'm not the identity police here). But those two above are my biggest rules. I'm more likely to forgive the first than the second, but in both cases you have to be willing to put up with me being suspicious, cold, and standoffish for a while until you prove you've not only given over a decent apology but also you're willing to not do it again and in fact have changed your ways.

This is what makes me crazy about the internet - and why forgiveness is so hard on the internet in general. I believe that everyone can change for the better (and for the worse). I believe everyone should be given that opportunity if they earn it. But that doesn't mean you can say "Sorry, I didn't mean to do that" and we're instantly okay. It means "I hear what you're saying and while I don't believe it I'm willing to extend you enough time to see if you've actually changed your ways." The problem with the internet is that it's a platform of anonymity, so it takes a willingness to drop that anonymity if they're going to show you they've changed. And the internet is an instant platform - instant communication, connection. Which means that people expect that change to happen - that forgiveness, the changing of ways, the wiping clean of the slate - to happen instantly too and that's just not how any of this works in my world.

mietze

I try to avoid knowing alts for the same reason. There are maybe 4 people in the hobby that I would immediately walk away from if I knew who they were in a game, and honestly I'm not even sure if any still play anymore.

Because I have definitely seen people who behave one way on one game behave super differently (in a good way) on another. Maturity, greater boundaries, not going through whatever it was that assisted in their bad behavior the other time, I dunno, but it doesnt really matter. Unless the person has very personally or specifically gone after me as a person/player in the past, I'd rather play than not. And if they have done so, I assume they dont like/dont want to interact with me, so why force it? That's fucking rude. It doesnt seem like as much of a thing anymore with the shrinking of the community, but in the past I've known folks who seemed to get off on figuring out who someone was that they didn't get along with and then insinuating themselves with them on a new PC on a different game. That to me is pretty gross. Even if someone hurt your feeling with their behavior on one game, just leave them the fuck alone if they dont like you! It happens. Not everyone gets along or likes everyone, you dont have to prove a point and actively deceive someone about it.

Lemon Fox

As I mentioned in another thread, as someone relatively 'new' to the whole community and culture, I didn't really understand the "We will not forgive, ever" attitude until it became clear that there are a few really, really bad apples that have repeatedly hurt people in this community. And as something of an outsider looking in, it's become really apparent that the socially unhinged people who keep sneaking back into the hobby to do the same thing over and over have irrevocably damaged the ability of this community to trust, as a whole.

And who knows, maybe the community isn't wrong to distrust in that regard?

Arkandel

@lemon-fox said in Forgiveness in Mushing:

And as something of an outsider looking in, it's become really apparent that the socially unhinged people who keep sneaking back into the hobby to do the same thing over and over have irrevocably damaged the ability of this community to trust, as a whole.

In my opinion the damage a handful of people have done to the hobby itself is minimal, although to specific individuals it's much more extensive of course. We simply namedrop them into conversations to drive forth a point, quite often as an insult.

The truth is most people don't think about us in negative terms as much as as we sometimes worry that they do, simply because they don't think of us at all. The vast majority of MUSHers don't have to worry about their public image or if they've been forgiven about their behavior that one time since, unless they set themselves on fire, no one is looking out to see who they play these days or keeping track of their digital whereabouts. No one gives a shit.

It's like going to a gym worrying everyone will think you're an out of shape newbie. They won't, simply because they're busy staring at themselves in the mirror. The same applies to gaming - as long as they don't shit the bed completely most people are going to be just fine.

Darinelle

@arkandel said in Forgiveness in Mushing:

It's like going to a gym worrying everyone will think you're an out of shape newbie. They won't, simply because they're busy staring at themselves in the mirror. The same applies to gaming - as long as they don't shit the bed completely most people are going to be just fine.

SO MUCH THIS.

Most days I can't remember who players used to play, you'll have to tell me 600 times. The ones that stick in my memory were the really awesome or really toxic players, but even then that's through a filter of my own experiences, not usually the hobby as a whole.

So as any community grows, there is a moment where they (hopefully) become protective of the health of the community as a whole. And when that happens, those who do damage to that community as a whole, either through behavior that affects everyone or through behavior that is so egregious toward a few that it cannot be allowed to stand, are generally banned/banished and sent on their way.

As I said regarding the first person I ever banned in any moderator position ever - the beauty of the internet is that there will always be different communities and different places. Which is to say that when you've done something the community considers heinous enough to show you the door, you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

Hopefully in the next place that person will grow and become someone better. Or get shown the door. Or fall in with people who don't care about a behavior that was, for this community, problematic/toxic/awful. There are a hell of a lot of people on the internet. Showing someone the door in an online community isn't sentencing them to a lifetime of misery, even if we would like to believe that being cut off from our amazing, awesome selves is THE ULTIMATE DOOM. It's just sending them to a different place, where hopefully they'll be less of an asshole.

bored

@testament I don't actually think we're that unforgiving, at least not as a community (individuals surely hold grudges). If anything, a theme that's come up recently is how someone can repeatedly get away with the same kind of bad behavior on many games, time and again. The only requirement is that they have some friends to back them up, give them cover, etc.

What we are, is a school playground writ large and populated by a good portion of seriously dysfunctional adults. Just like everywhere, we form our particular cliques and tribes and we defend them, and those groups definitely take their enmities seriously, even the tiniest slight or 'she took mah man!' spiraling into ridiculous drama, backed up by personal hit squads spreading rumor or blacklisting people from RP. But the people who end up on universal shitlists are few and far between, and it usually takes decades of behavior, multiple destroyed games, and then pissing off enough of the key game-runners and so on, to actually end up disgraced (ie, a situation like VASpider or Custodius).

The other thread is a pretty mild example, that blew up because it was someone random insulting someone well-respected. True pariah-ship in our hobby really takes some impressive heights of being an actual real-life sociopath to achieve. So I'm not sure we need to be more forgiving generally, so much as more forgiving of minor slights and less forgiving of negative behaviors that impact the game.

AeriaNyx

This is such a good topic. Man.

I have to echo a lot of the things already stated, that people who are drawn to Mushing or RP in general are folks who have a desire for social connections that can be kept at arm's length. There is a safety to it. A sense that things cannot hurt you because of distance (Utter and completely false, but I think it is an easy lie to tell ourselves and hang onto despite multiple hurts happening) and that most alluring thing of all: The ability to be anything you want. In a table top setting I know I can have hesitancy, at first, from really sinking into character, because I am not a nine foot tall furry tornado of claws, teeth and rage and everyone there CAN SEE ME. Behind the screen, I can be anyone I want to be. And that is incredibly freeing. There is that wonderful ability to have intimacy without the risk of actual (again, this is typically untrue, but damn if I don't convince myself it is) vulnerability.

As for forgiveness... my own unique cocktail of social dysfunctions include a typically passive (and secretly competitive) personality, happy to follow a more dominant personality and generally do my best to absolutely please everyone as much as possible for as long as possible until I burn the fuck out or snap. I am also a wound collector. If someone hurts my feelings or treats me in a way I find objectionable, I will hold onto that and I will remember. I won't treat them any differently, but my eye is on them. And then one day, without warning, I will have had enough. And the Nice Me that is supportive and caring and energized and helpful turns into Raging Bitch and I usually go way too far. And I hold onto all that resentment that has been bubbling and brewing and I just see them as having victimized me for TOO LONG. 99% of the time, now I am self aware enough to stop this cycle before it gets too far. I try talking to people and being calm, or if I am going through a phase of being utterly out of touch with my emotions and am surprised into Rage, I generally pull myself out of the situation and quietly talk to someone to do a sanity check before I start projectile peasouping someone. The problem going forward is that even if I don't hulk out on someone, I tend to never forget the hurts. I will forgive them, I'll be nice and kind and supportive, but I will likely never trust them past that point. No one knows that but me. But it is there. And I wish it wasn't.

There is one particular grudge I really, really wish I could get over. This person was so toxic, so manipulative and just... gragh.. entitled. It still bugs the hell out of me. This person got me so mad that I literally just... I didn't recognize myself in the hateful spew of shit I went on. If someone brought her up on WORA or SWOFA, I would be there, screaming my hate like a freaking harpy. Saying the worst stuff because how DARE she be so evil!!! Said person is now an insanely successful, best-selling author who is working on all sorts of projects that I really want to read or check out, but I can't. Because while I am embarrassed by my behavior in the past, I still think she is the worst. Hearing her name still makes me twitch.

I really wish I could get over that. Because she has no idea, and my grudge is only hurting me.

Aria

@aerianyx If it's any consolation, the dude I who I mentioned having stalked me across multiple games for several years used one particular actor for the character I dealt with the most, the longest, and had the hardest time avoiding.

Despite the fact that this actor is reasonably talented and has never once in his life even been in the vague vicinity of me, let alone done something to me, I become irrationally angry every time I see his stupid fucking face. It makes no sense, I know, and I've never yet been able to determine if it's exacerbated by the fact that he tends to play jerks or if that just makes my reaction more tolerable in the moment, since it doesn't really contradict the plot of whatever he's in. Either way, the minute he's on screen, I'm pretty much in eye-narrowing "Man, fuck that guy" mode.

Kanye Qwest

I forgive people on and off line when they take responsibility and show dedication to change.

How often that happens is /shrug

Paris

I tend to be more forgiving of newer MUshers, and generally only shitlist folks who keep doing the same toxic stuff over years.

I don't really accept the 'socially majadjusted' explanation for these behaviors, though. Most MUers are grown-ups, we know how to put ourselves in other people's shoes, and we can empathise. Once again, I give newer, younger MUers more leeway, because they're learning the right netiquette; but at the same time, as human beings who have grown up amidst civilisation, I expect some basic courtesy, manners, and awareness. You don't need to tell people not to sexually harass people, or stop manipulating people to cause drama, etc; they already know this is wrong. (And they hate it when it happens to them, so they ARE aware of boundaries.)

I have NO patience or forgiveness for long-term players who are actively malicious OR extremely 'clueless', because the vast majority of them do know better and just do toxic shit anyway. IMO, they just need to leave. They had every opportunity to be better than they were and they chose the shitty option anyway. This is specifically repeat offenders, as has been previously said, everyone has a bad day and a couple arguments here and there does not constitute a pattern.

I've been in the hobby since 93? Ish. And so in my case, it's resulted in letting a lot of things roll off instead of getting angrier about it: there's a lot of minor-level stuff that people do that is just what people do, especially new people. But I am, as people know, pretty hard-ass and confrontational about a very few things: stalking, creeping, harassment, harem wars, crap like that. All of these things, people know better. It isn't necessary. It isn't beneficial in any way. It just creates more unnecessary toxicity. People who thrive on that just suck and I believe they are too often enabled. They are categorically not welcome in my little corner of the internet (and the feeling is mutual, I know).

Thenomain

@kanye-qwest said in Forgiveness in Mushing:

I forgive people on and off line when they take responsibility and show dedication to change.

How often that happens is /shrug

Same, but I'm learning what change I'm willing to accept is sometimes part of the problem. I don't think I'm the only one, as evidence how often I still hear people say things like, "Well if only they did something different..."

Well they didn't, so what are you going to do about it? Because at the end of the day, what happens next is not just up to them, but ourselves, and we have control of only one of those two factors.

Accepting the situation is something that I think too few people strive for. I constantly try to improve, and it frustrates me when I think I have no progress in this field.