Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?

[surreality]

@Coin ...<3

Was referencing your timeskip-on-same-game concept. I figured you might want to chime in on that front as it could work with this kind of game. (It strikes me as something that could be exceptionally well-suited to it.)

Edit: P.S. Totally saving that to warn tag victims in advance some time.

[Jennkryst]

clears throat

A continuation of the Serenity discussion so that can maybe (but most likely won't) get back on-topic. Also just re-posting this because we keep talking in circles and it's time to have space sim discussion again, so all the points are up there ^ !

The big thing to remember is that the soapbox is not the whole of the MUing community, despite what mindsets and... er... statements from atop soapboxes... might imply. You cannot take the WoD mindset and apply it 1:1 to the communities of other games and expect it to come out the same way.

Taaaake Star Wars.

In one corner, we have Chontio using the FFG rules. Centralized RP on the one planet and really no way to have your fancy SWAG. I joined WITH A GROUP, and we got... not a lot done, because we were techies, and that kind of hinged on having gear to upgrade. 'Just handwave gear' is incredibly close to a 'just use what your resource stat says is cool' attitude. Which might work some places, but not there. Or maybe not? All I can say is that there used to be waaay more than 4 people on around this time, but right now... there's just the 4. And I'm one of them. Whee.

In the other corner, Age of Alliances uses Dahan's Dynamic Skill System... the one that is in place on Serenity, but scales to 100 instead of 40. Presently, there's 55 players online, with 79 for today's record. It feels more like a Star Wars game, with ships and flight and equipment and all that. Also, you can totally just avoid space yourself, and use the shuttle system. Win/win!

All that said, I'm not advocating playing at AoA over Chontio. I'm on record as being a huge Edge of the Empire/Force & Destiny nerd. I was incredibly vocal about getting the FFG ruleset in place for a MU, and one of the reasons I pulled the chute on AoA in the first place was how the headwiz was ADAMANTLY against it when he decided to wipe the database for Episode 7. But at the same time, I want to play a game that FEELS like Star Wars, and not a WoD game with the labels replaced.

Sooooo.

Yeah.

Got off on a tangent there. Ahem.

Anyone know where we can find code of any of these fancy old space sims? I have some (unfinished and buggy) HSpace 5 code. It's hardcode for Penn, but it exists and has the foundation for Brachistochrone trajectories, because unlike earlier HSpace systems, there is no coded drag. Once you get up to your desired velocity, you will continue until you slow yourself back down. Not that that matters, because planets hadn't gotten to the point that they were mobile yet.

Anyone? Space code? Bueller?

[Auspice]

I'm a fan of 'space sims,' myself, hearkening back to days of being unable to sleep and Gettin Shit Done. Awesome merchant times on WNOHGB. I enjoyed HSpace on Serenity before, well, Inara made me hate Serenity (my 'How to Fly' guide apparently survived from when I played up through being reposted/modified when the game had a website... oh how it grew from its days as a .txt I emailed to people).

I loved the system to fly around and find 'claims' on both CrystalMUSH and Crystal Dreams MUSH.

It is a mini-game. If done well, I think it won't prevent RP but can maybe enhance it. With smaller games now... yeah, it can be harder, but I also sometimes feel an itch on sci-fi games where everyone is completely stuck on a single planet. It just sort of breaks immersion for me.

[faraday]

@Jennkryst Comparing Chontio to AoA and attributing the difference to crunchy code is a false equivalence. As you pointed out, Chontio used to have a lot more activity before staff got steamrolled by RL. And it lacked a lot of the traditional thematic trappings of a Star Wars game, focusing on regional politics instead of jedi and smugglers and rebels and such. This is not meant as a criticism of them; I'm just saying that Chontio wasn't traditional Star Wars irrespective of what coded systems they have, so any activity comparisons to other SW games are apples vs. oranges.

Also, narrative-centric games are in no way unique to WoD. "Just handwave gear" isn't inherently a bad thing for techies if there are other ways for them to get involved in the narrative. Story requires conflict. If the code isn't creating conflict, then the players/staff must create it. Our techies on BSP (back in the day) had a fair amount to do even without a lick of code.

That said, I do agree that simulation-heavy games have the advantage of letting players entertain themselves even when story is not readily available, and there are a lot of players who enjoy them. (Case in point: the popularity of Arx, Firan and every RPI/MUD). Simulation can also support the story on narrative-centric games by offloading some of the work. (e.g. FS3 combat on all the BSG games). So I'm not saying that all simulation is bad. It just comes down to what kind of game you want to run and your players want to play.

My main issue with space travel is games is when people are zipping around the galaxy just to find RP even if the theme says they shouldn't (either because of travel times or resource constraints). That just breaks immersion for me. If you want a spread-out game, make it so the characters have reasons to move around. Your bartender on Persephone just isn't going to be space-hopping willy-nilly.

[Jennkryst]

@faraday It's not saying complexity is inherantly better. Because Age of Alliances and Serenity are pretty close to the same code for everything (rumors from the time were that Serenity lifted most of their code from AoA, but I don't think they were ever confirmed). One is hella populated, the other is pretty bare bones.

What I am saying is that from what I've seen between the two, AoA feels more like Star Wars than Chontio, to me. And while logins are not the end all be all metric of best game or whatever... Age of Alliances has more players online at this current abnormal RP timeslot (0500 EST) than Chontio's all time record - something that, again to me, says that it exudes more Star Warsiness.

Or not. I could be totally wrong.

I can say that lack of plot likely was a factor, because Plot can definately swing bring back the aura of Star Wars... but but without knowing who is or isn't a staff alt on AoA, I can't speak to how many of the scheduled +events are staff, and how many are PCs stepping up.

[faraday]

@Jennkryst I'm not disagreeing with you that AoA feels more like Star Wars than Chontio. I'm just arguing that code (or lack thereof) is not the principal driving factor in that disparity.

ETA: I meant for folks in general. Obviously you feel how you feel about it. If flying a coded ship makes it feel more real than +shuttle Tatooine, more power to you.

[silverfox]

I personally felt really disconnected on the only Star Wars game I tried because of space travel. It was really hard to find RP because someone else was always elsewhere and couldn't get to where my non planet hopping character was.

[Arkandel]

I guess I was never into sci-fi for roleplaying purposes although I read a lot of it and I certainly enjoy science fiction movies and shows.

The sole exception to that is playing Force users because lightsabers.

[Lotherio]

Fish tank as an allegory to space on a RPG-focused MU.

If you want live plants in a tank, you can't just slap some in your aquarium. It will upset the ecosystem and lead to hard to control algae blooms that makes it hard to see the focus of your tank, which was your fish you had established already in that micro ecosystem. For plants, you make a tank as a water garden and, once established you add a few fish as highlights to the lovely landscape you created. Google planted tank, there is 'room' for more fish in most of those tanks by basic hobbyist standards.

I rarely play WoD, just cause that was a baseline assumption of anyone who might disagree with the necro post that arose this thread from its grave. I played SW1 and a few other heavy coded space SW places, I played BT (less the RP ones like 3060, more the strategy game that was 3065 with random battles starting up all the time).

If /you/ want space, stop asking others to tack on space to their games. /You/ make the great space strategy game, then have RP as a highlight, and you may get what you're looking. Go back to googling a planted tank, most of those aquariums go against the rules of thumb for how many fish one can put in a tank (less than the rule of thumb). The plants are the space game (awesome landscape=awesome space play) and the few fish are the sparkling RP highlights to an already amazing backdrop and people can focus on what they want.

Oh yeah, secondary to the allegory, or part of it. The tanks is a closed space, if space is too open and there is meant to be some major RP/meta going on, it will be hard for the fish (I mean players) to find each other.

[Ghost]

@SG said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

why not have space adventure games in localized areas where moving from one spot to the other in a RL day isn't some sort of immersion breaking feat?

I personally find "this sector only" to heavily hinder the space sci-fi genre. It's also very hard to justify only remaining in one sector when you're flying around in ships with hyperdrives.

[Arkandel]

@Ghost said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

I personally find "this sector only" to heavily hinder the space sci-fi genre. It's also very hard to justify only remaining in one sector when you're flying around in ships with hyperdrives.

It's not trivial to strike a good balance between allowing the universe as your players' playground (which is fun) and splitting up the playerbase too thin so you can't ever find RP outside of your immediate social circles since everyone else is on a different planet/solar system (which is less fun).

I agree with @Lotherio that these things need to be set up from scratch. For example just because you may go everywhere you goddamn please and have all kinds of whacky adventures there, there's a thematic reason why the actual PCs keep returning/hanging out primarily at a certain 'home' turf. But that, to emphasize the part, is not effortless and it won't happen unless it's made that way.

[Coin]

@Ghost said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

@SG said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

why not have space adventure games in localized areas where moving from one spot to the other in a RL day isn't some sort of immersion breaking feat?

I personally find "this sector only" to heavily hinder the space sci-fi genre. It's also very hard to justify only remaining in one sector when you're flying around in ships with hyperdrives.

I mean. I manage to play in a small town setting and my character drives around in a car and has access to airplanes. I mean, okay? lol.

[BobGoblin]

My question about Space Travel (or ANY game that has a travel requirement) is why? Is it to create a feeling of largeness? If that's the case, then you're also conceding that you want things spread out (hence RP spreads out). Is it to provide alternative activities for the players to do besides RP? That's acceptable if that is the goal, but what is the goal there? To keep players connected to the game during 'down times' so that when RP opportunities arise they are around? Again, if that's the case how is that being addressed?

I've played on a large amount of Space Coded games in the past, going all the way back to ST: SNW and WC:RH. When I drop my rose colored glasses off, there were definitely pros and cons to all those things. I'm not entirely sure if at any point these systems provided RP, they more than likely created outlets of gaming style that didn't exist in the time period.

So the root question imo is IF you want a Space System, WHY?

[Ganymede]

I am not going to question as to a player's motivations as to why they may enjoy space travel. That's just fine. People have different tastes. People also TS me from time to time, so I try not to inquire as to what another person's taste du jour might be.

That said, based on what's been said, the motivations for Space Travel seem to be:

• Realism
• Intra-ship RP
• Potential Encounters in Transit

Putting aside the first motivation, which is a matter of taste, it seems to me that space travel could be easily handled via Temp Rooms. Have a code-bit that creates a "transit room" for players to enter that represents their ship in travel when a trip is initiated, and essentially locks it down for a period of time equal to the "real time" travel time. Have a set of "destinations" in the code that then ejects the occupant PC Objections at each such "destinations" after the travel time has ended.

[Ghost]

Let's take it a step deeper, too.

Systems with coded ship objects that fly from one segment of grid to the next also tend to have other coded objects: guns, armor, etc.

I think some players enjoy the tactile sense of an object that means something, which is why I presume some people prefer systems like HSpace to using temp rooms for space travel.

Objects are an interesting catch-22 when it comes to RPGs. On one hand, object-driven RPGs provide the players/GMs with rewards that can help define what the PC can or cannot do, but on the other side, object-driven RPGs very easily become more about having stuff. On mushes (like we saw on Serenity), it can quickly become about hoarding stuff, resulting in only a few certain groups having the best stuff, which turned into an OOC mess.

Anyway, so I have this inkling feeling that the argument for or against a space coded system runs deeper than simply having a ship. I suspect people that want coded ship objects also want coded weapon, armor, etc objects. So if I'm right, this has less to do about the desire for coded space flight, but the desire to move away from light systems in favor of something crunchier and more technical.

I can't deny, there's something definitely rewarding about having objects.

[WildBaboons]

On the subject of travel time.. you can have it both ways?

AoA kinda does already. There is regular space and hyper space. Regular space for Space based flying around and RP for folks that love that, but hit hyperspace to Fast Travel.

Right now AoA has travel times on hyper space and their shuttle system so it can still take a long time (sometimes hours) to get between systems, but a similar system could just cut those times down to seconds and appease most people (other than those that feel travel times are needed for immersion)

[Ghost]

@Coin said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

@Ghost said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

@SG said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

why not have space adventure games in localized areas where moving from one spot to the other in a RL day isn't some sort of immersion breaking feat?

I personally find "this sector only" to heavily hinder the space sci-fi genre. It's also very hard to justify only remaining in one sector when you're flying around in ships with hyperdrives.

I mean. I manage to play in a small town setting and my character drives around in a car and has access to airplanes. I mean, okay? lol.

Right. Let me be clearer since it appears you wanted to get an "lol" in.

From Star Trek to Buck Rogers to Farscape to Star Wars, the Sci-fi "Space Opera" genre largely dwells in large, galaxy-spanning drama where weird planets, weird cultures, and weird space phenomena are a part of the storytelling. A lot of the genre involves finding weird, new places, and flying a spaceship there to kick ass or seduce a space princess.

There are a few exceptions that have been successful that focus on one solar system. The Expanse is a good example of that.

My point was this. Given that the genre (and in most cases, the setting) involve traveling to and from different star systems, I feel that limiting play to a particular star system somewhat limits the player by slaving them to one setting. Also, these genres also tend to include spaceships capable of traveling from one end of the galaxy to the next, so having a ship that can do that but reasons limiting them to only being in one sector can be limiting to the writer, as well.

Space is about BIG.

[Sunny]

I am not actually a WoD player, either. However, I still feel like there's no reason for travel time to be strictly enforced on screen, let alone with space. If I have 2 hours to play tonight, and only 2 hours, I want to be able to go play, not sit for those two hours waiting to get to where the people are.

I think that ANY code/system/policy that interferes OOCly with players playing is not a good system. Code-enforced OOC travel time interferes with peoples' ability to roleplay. Thus, I think it's a bad idea.

[Coin]

@Ghost said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

@Coin said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

@Ghost said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

@SG said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

why not have space adventure games in localized areas where moving from one spot to the other in a RL day isn't some sort of immersion breaking feat?

I personally find "this sector only" to heavily hinder the space sci-fi genre. It's also very hard to justify only remaining in one sector when you're flying around in ships with hyperdrives.

I mean. I manage to play in a small town setting and my character drives around in a car and has access to airplanes. I mean, okay? lol.

Right. Let me be clearer since it appears you wanted to get an "lol" in.

From Star Trek to Buck Rogers to Farscape to Star Wars, the Sci-fi "Space Opera" genre largely dwells in large, galaxy-spanning drama where weird planets, weird cultures, and weird space phenomena are a part of the storytelling. A lot of the genre involves finding weird, new places, and flying a spaceship there to kick ass or seduce a space princess.

There are a few exceptions that have been successful that focus on one solar system. The Expanse is a good example of that.

My point was this. Given that the genre (and in most cases, the setting) involve traveling to and from different star systems, I feel that limiting play to a particular star system somewhat limits the player by slaving them to one setting. Also, these genres also tend to include spaceships capable of traveling from one end of the galaxy to the next, so having a ship that can do that but reasons limiting them to only being in one sector can be limiting to the writer, as well.

Space is about BIG.

Not necessarily.

Space can be about small. Alien. Event Horizon. Any movie or book set mostly inside a ship. "But that ship travels," I hear you say. Yes, but the action transpires in the ship.

In any case, I disagree with your objection to limitations in a setting mostly because as a writer I find I'm most prolific when I have limitations set.

[Lotherio]

Taking onto feeling of big versus actual grid big. Most of those follow one group/crew, there is lots of new planets, but the central focus is a space port or ship or some such.

Take Star Wars and the hundreds of system. How much activity actually took place on Tatooine? In all the movies, how many locations actually made the cut, 3 or 4 tops; not hundreds of locations.

The small town @Coin mentioned, there is an entire world of places to go in that car or plane, but the main focus of the RP is that town it feels like. Still a might big world and anything needed could be done up in some temp room or just ooc My guy says, "Lets use this 'room' to RP, but we're on the road to the next town to dump this body in the river there" or whatever.

There is the illusion of big versus is do we need infinite space full of a hundred planets coded in to explore?