MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity

[Derp]

@Sunny said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

roars in dinosaur

28, here.

hands you your coded, gilded cane of curmudgeonry +10

[surreality]

I started in '96 and there are a number of folks who have been around considerably longer. Nnngh, need to spike this coffee now, don't I.

[Tyche]

This post is deleted!

[Ghost]

@Joyeuse Realistically, you may not see overt discrimination at all. Even to the people who are bigoted, the community is very quick to bring the hammer down on people who use bigoted language.

Also realistically, a number of players have issues separating their OOC selves from their RL selves, which leads to a number of things that could side-effect your way. If your character isn't a match for their OOC preferences you may see issues with stuff like getting into IC relationships. Players can also be very fickle about letting new people in, which could result in some feelings of alienation. All in all, like I said, you're not likely to be directly avoided or told outright why if you are, so the best thing to do is just stick with people you enjoy RP with.

Having said that, I advise you to delete that "playlist" entry. Trust me. We've got people who complain about stalkers a large number of players track who-is-who from game to game. Limit the amount of ability you give people to contact you Oocly (dont give names, personal information, phone numbers, etc and use throwaway email addresses, discord logins, etc). When you start getting pages and messages about so-and-so and who did what 15 years ago, you'll understand.

There are a lot of people here with a lot of history. 20+ as you've seen so far. Mushing is less of an age club than it is somewhat Oocly factioned, and a number of players are suspicious of new people because A) They are an unweighed element B) Because they want to vet that the new person isn't an anonymous sock puppet for a bad person and C) Because there are cliques and some people only like to RP with their core group because there's less risk of wasting time.

[Joyeuse]

@Ghost Followed your advice and went ahead and snipped that. Figured it might have been handy, but if there's stuff like that going on it may just be best not to put myself out there like that!

I suppose all that I really can do is persevere and see how things turn out! I have decent hopes, though. Once I get over these initial feelings.

[faraday]

@Joyeuse said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

@Ghost Followed your advice and went ahead and snipped that. Figured it might have been handy, but if there's stuff like that going on it may just be best not to put myself out there like that!

I adore Ghost, but this is one thing where we definitely don't see eye to eye. Yes, there are creepers, people who will hold something from 20 years ago against you, or folks who form an opinion and will grit their teeth every time that you're both on a game together.

BUT, there are also a lot of good people out there. As you participate in the community and build a reputation for being a decent person, then having that playlist or OOC identity will benefit you in getting involved in RP and making OOC connections with other players.

Also people just aren't as good at keeping their identities secret as they think they are. Pose styles, online times, etc. Usually it comes out who people are.

You can see from the number of people who have created Ares player handles or MSB playlists that a lot of people feel the same as I do. Not everyone, of course, but a sizable chunk of folks.

Anyway, welcome to the community!

[Roz]

@Joyeuse I will disagree with Ghost's point: if you haven't had issues as of yet with other players such that you have reason to feel someone's focused on you, playlists can indeed be a source of fun reunion. I think people should be thoughtful about what they reveal to strangers on the internet, obviously, but on the other hand I don't think a practically brand new player needs to excessively cover their tracks. I'd say most (not all, I know) players don't really encounter issues with having their playlists up. You can definitely choose the route of being a relative enigma, some people do, but I don't want you to feel scared off of a more personable route. There are safe ways to do it, especially if you have good boundaries.

[TNP]

Does Neverwinter Nights on AOL count?
Or Gemstone III on GEnie?
The Sierra Network?

Those would put me in the 28-29 years ago range. I don't recall which was my first actual Mush. Maybe Dragonsfire Moo which was a Pern game.

[saosmash]

I've never had an issue having my playlist up and am always upfront about who I am on games. If people don't like me, they can avoid me, and it will be better for us both, tbh!

[Ghost]

@Joyeuse Some members of the community and I have a difference of opinion on those playlist entries. I adore @faraday as well and we disagree, no biggie <3. It's just a personal decision based on how much you want your characters tied to the community as a whole. Community or hobby? Your call.

PRO

• Helps people find you if you want to be found
• "Hey, I remember you!"
• Whatevs, it can be a simple, fun, thing.
• Helps you remember who you played as wikis also disappear when games do.

CON

• With so many OOC personalities identified to IC charbits and a number of people who have issues separating IC/OOC, there is a risk of people holding your in-character decisions as having something to do with you.
• Stalker risk.
• After 20 years I can tell you that most mushers I know have kept track of who played who for good reasons and bad reasons. I dont currently mush and still get messages about how so and so from some game 5 years ago is playing on thos new game and...

In the end, my stance is that it's better to keep IC purely IC and let the characters speak for themselves, and don't nail in the hook that awkward OOC conversations can use to hang you on.

But I digress from the point.

I think the community is safe for LGBTQ+ with growing support as time goes on, but this does not equal a guarantee of meaningful RP related to your T acronym. That you'll have to find and probably rely on cool RPers for.

[Auspice]

@TNP said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

Those would put me in the 28-29 years ago range. I don't recall which was my first actual Mush. Maybe Dragonsfire Moo which was a Pern game.

That was my first game, too!

Also, put me in the column of 'doesn't mind people knowing who I play/ed.'
I mean, look, if they hate me? I don't have to run into them if they're avoiding me. Win/win.

[Rinel]

cough

As a trans woman...

Now that we've gotten that particular nauseating phrase out of the way, I've experienced a sense of alienation at times, but I think that's just people having long histories together and certain games being harder to break into than others. But even on the game that I've found easiest to get into, I've had to bulldoze my way into scenes more than once (read: I still do this on what's basically a weekly basis). I personally haven't experienced any sort of anti-queer sentiment, but I've only played on three games (Arx, Spirit Lake, Gray Harbor), and they have very progressive player bases (shoutout to @Kanye-Qwest for making Arx as amazing as it is in this regard).

[Tempest]

There is a difference between having your playlist be public, and....being one of those people who gives out your discord/email/phone number/RL name/bank account number/address/etc to every random person you do a scene with, and then complains about having problems because of it.

I think it's probably like a 1% of people who actually have problems just from their playlist. Not to minimize the problems those people have, I'm sure it's stressful and sucks, but it's far from common.

As @saosmash and @Auspice said, playlists generally simply serve to help go "oh I played with that guy on X-other-MU and we did not mesh at all" or "oh i really liked Jane on that other game!"

On to the topic itself.

I've been MUing for some 17 years or so, and started on MUDs. In the past 10 years, I have encountered almost no issue playing almost exclusively gay characters. (A small handful have been bi.)

Admittedly, I tend to be relatively...'quiet' about my business. I mean, I'll flirt and stuff in public scenes, but I am pretty far from in your face, unless it's a private scene.

I, as a player, don't have a ton of patience for players (or characters) who are super in your face about sexual business, and that has nothing to do with gender or sexual orientation. I don't like hetero guys that are constantly in my face or showing up to scenes with their girlfriend on a leash, and I don't like it when it's two guys or two women doing the same thing. (No problem with leashes, the problem is when and where.)

In my experience, the problem where LGBT+ characters/players encounter issues on games has largely been when they're constantly drawing attention to it, etc.

I know sexuality feels like a HUGE issue to us as people, but it should never be the "defining characteristic" of a person, or a character. Your character isn't "a lesbian woman". Hopefully she is "a doctor with a mysterious past" or something first and foremost.

Edit : Though, in retrospect "gay" or "trans" is a better fucking RP hook than "JANE IS REALLY SHORT TEEHEE!" "OH AND SHE HAS FUCKING RAINBOW HAIR!" So fuck. What do I know.

[Rinel]

@Tempest

I had a character on Gray Harbor who was nonbinary, and I think that was, while not the single largest part of their identity (2nd gen Chinese, bboy/bgirl/bperson came before it), a pretty large one. But I also think that when you're in the present day and not in a setting where those things are necessarily widely accepted (my impression of WoD is that people are much less interested in your gender identity than they are in your likelihood to diablerize them), it can be a compelling factor in character development.

On places like Arx, though, where it's not an issue culturally, you can get really wonderful characters like Cybele, whose gender identity/non-identity was a part of a fantastic, fully-fleshed out character.

[mietze]

I think the most pervasive troublesome thing when it comes to sexuality and gender identification on MUSHes remain the folks who are very centered on wish gratification and fetishization especially when those are deeply enmeshed. I mean you have the often misogynistic creepy dudes playing lesbians issue that seemed to be all the rage to the point of being a pretty good assumption in the 90s, but there have been other instances (ooc female yaoi fans dominating portrayals of gay pcs, some uncomfortable encounters I have had with people portraying non-binary or trans PCs when it was clear that there was some ulterior stuff going on, ect.)

There is often denial or accusations of people being too sensitive when something seems off, though I guess no worse than other parts of the internet.

I do not know that it is better or worse in mushing. My kids (16-almost 18, who are all rpers but do not have interest in mushes because of the real time factor) and I have frequent chats about this and they report a lot of the same behavior to be honest, even though their places are filled with peers or close to it!

[Vixanic]

Having never met Cybele on Arx, but knowing a little of the mythology, @Rinel's description sounds perfect.

For those who aren't aware: https://www.theoi.com/Phrygios/Kybele.html

[Auspice]

@Rinel said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

(my impression of WoD is that people are much less interested in your gender identity than they are in your likelihood to diablerize them TS them regardless)

ftfy.

[Thenomain]

@Joyeuse ...

I think the only time I saw problems with anyone’s sexual identity have been when they were flagrant about it being about their sexuality. I believe this was less about their sexual identity and more that they were pushing their agenda harshly on bystanders.

So only jerks being jerks.

I haven’t seen a clique for a while, in the sense of a clique shutting people out for being new or different. There are a lot of opinionated people around here, but we are a bunch of nerds after all.

Well, most of us are.

At least some of us.

Well, I am.

[Auspice]

@Thenomain said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

I think the only time I saw problems with anyone’s sexual identity have been when they were flagrant about it being about their sexuality. I believe this was less about their sexual identity and more that they were pushing their agenda harshly on bystanders.

I think this is a good way to put it.

I have seen PCs whose entire character concept was 'is trans' or 'is androgynous' (the latter, IMO, is sort of insulting in this day and age because it becomes a 'teehee guess what gender they are' and that's just... no)

I have seen PCs for whom, like @Rinel is describing, it was part of their being as a whole. As it would be IRL.

As someone for which most of my female PCs are bi or lesbian (bi IRL), it just is. It's just a component of who they are. It comes up if it comes up.

It's not oozing out of every single pose.

And I think that may be where people get a little uneasy. And I think, personally, people should get uneasy on both sides. I can't speak for anyone trans, obviously, but as a woman who likes ladies (and guys... really just anyone hot, y'know?)... I find it downright insulting and skeevy when I see one of those 'big busty revealing clothes lesbians' who remind you with every pose that they're a lesbian and that they'll sleep with any woman in the room and ew boys are gross.

So in my mind (again, I don't know for certain): I imagine those who are trans or agender or similar feel much the same way. It's insulting to see the caricatures/tropes.

[Ghost]

@Joyeuse , @mietze totally touched on something I made a mental note to say before getting distracted with my whole Anonymous IzLyf shit.

You'll see a number of players playing a myriad of roles regardless of their own gender/identity (I'm a fan of this. Go go exploration) You'll see some of those players roleplaying caricatures (or arguably, fetishization) of subcultures they, themselves are not a part of in RL; stuff like straight women playing gay males, dudebros playing lesbian pornstar tropes. Is it offensive? Probably needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis, but from what I've seen people actually knowing your OOC race, gender, nationality (etc) can create issues on your PC's identity choices. There are people who don't want to see (example) white straight men play anything other than. Sign of the times.

Eye of the beholder.