The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc
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The ethics of IC Romance and TS is all about managing expectations. If you're going to be 100% IC, you need to be 100% IC. If this means you're cheating and you have crazy hawt seches and have some hickies, you need to RP covering them up or they get spotted. If you're going to have OOC collab you need to be upfront. OOC collab means that you are writing a story together and just like writers in a meeting you're pitching ideas and discussing story threads. This includes any negative drama you want to explore. If you want to go some IC/OOC hybrid because you're chatting and coordinating playtimes and you banter a bit. You just need to be honest. Don't mislead your RP partner. If honesty leads to hurt feelings that sucks but you're not a creeper or abuser if you don't try and obscure or manipulate. You might be an asshole, but I think there is a fundamental difference between being an ass and victimizing your RP partners.
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@Jeshin there's also a thing that, even in the most IC-is-IC complete separation zero OOC expectation collaboration playstyle...
Okay, so a possibly apocryphal D&D story. Our heroes can see a room at the end of the hall, with a pile of gold in the middle. Naturally suspicious, they start asking questions. Is the treasure magical? Are there monsters in the hallway? I detect invisibility, does that show me anything? They go through their whole paranoia checklist, and start in toward the treasure... and the DM tells them to roll initiative, they never asked if there was a monster on the pile of treasure fnar fnar fnar and the ancient Red Dragon is attacking.
When we RP, we make choices. Choices need to be based on information from scene-runners and RP partners. If I'm playing a character in a committed relationship and they're cheating on their partner, it's incumbent on me to relay the relevant information to my RP partners that their character would have.
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@insomniac7809 Not to split hairs, but IC "infidelity", if kept entirely IC, is something dealt with after the fact, not something in a story that characters get to opt out of before it happens. Is it better if it's discussed beforehand oocly? Yes. But if everything is entirely IC then things can happen on the spot and the resulting IC roleplay is the fallout.
I see what you're saying, just...<headwobble>.
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Agree, relevant information based on what a character could or would know via @mail or @emit/pose whatever means you use to convey it or a straightup ooc you would know this. I suppose when I said 100% IC, I meant no OOC planning or collaboration but you have to tell them what they'd know somehow.
EDIT - Like being spotted at a club on grid in public or your sweet leather jacket that was a gift was cut off you in a fit of passion. So that item is missing or gone. Not sleeping in the same room like normal, soandso didn't come home last night FYI.
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@Ghost I think you missed what he's saying. The point (as I saw it) was that if you want to keep everything purely IC, you have to integrate it into RP. That is: when people cheat, there are usually some sort of signals or evidence left in its wake. If you are engaging in a playstyle where everything is IC and no OOC discussion happens, you have to basically play fair with it by giving IC indicators of stuff the other character would reasonably be witness to. As opposed to playing unfair with it, which would be to give absolutely no indications -- or even play in such a way as to aggressively project the opposite, even if it's not actually at all feasible. If your PC is hooking up with lots of people on the side but you are RPing with their SO as if all that time is actually being spent with them, you are basically being purposefully misleading on an OOC level. Hence the comparison with a DM not giving their players information about a thing that was visible right in front of their characters.
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I've come to the conclusion that anybody who seeks out one of my PCs for romance is probably ass crazy.
Anyone I might have my PC seek out for romance assumes I am ass crazy.
It makes life so much easier.
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When is the appropriate time to announce OOCly "I'm masturbating to this!" because I seem to get it wrong every time.
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@teethteethteeth said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:
When is the appropriate time to announce OOCly "I'm masturbating to this!" because I seem to get it wrong every time.
right when they stick their finger up your ass
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@Auspice But then it's not masturbation!
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@Cupcake said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:
@Auspice But then it's not masturbation!
Well I meant when they stick their IC finger up your IC ass.
Semantics!
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@Roz GotchaGotcha. I don't think he's wrong I'm just digesting it.
So last few minutes here's what I thought:
What do people want:
- Roleplay
- To not be cut out of roleplay
- To maintain relevance
What do people really not want
- Characters who 'cheat' but do so in a way that can't be discovered ICly, resulting in no closure to the jilted IC lover and a cake and eat it, too scenario with no ramifications.
- Players who do the above but then get angry OOCly if their 'harem' doesn't comply
So, rolling it around in my head I asked myself how I'd want it. Like @Auspice said I'd been here ICly before with little to no angst, so how I'd want it?
- Not to be kept waiting. If your PC is off doing shenanigans you dont have to okay it through me, but let me know not to wait up and that their absence will be notable ICly. Its not my job to be held on pause while you have TS adventures
- You be cool, I'll be cool. We aren't married. I dont really care why you want the character to do their thing. It's your character. You dont get to control the IC response to your IC decision. I'll keep it IC, but story is what it is
- So long as everyone is respectful and pages dont become laborious pre-marriage counseling nonsense? Cool. I dont need your personal OOC opinions on my style of roleplay and you don't owe me alimony. Game on.
I know i keep coming back to this, though, but I think the huge reason why so much TS is behind closed doors is because there's a deeply personal aspect to it. It's probably always going to be my opinion as to why so many cheating episodes ICly are reacted to like RL cheating and not sex scenes on True Blood. Still, really what people want is to maintain the flow of RP, positive or negative scene-wise, and to not just get left on the side of the road with nothing to RP.
But, having said that, you cant make THE RELATIONSHIP your lifeline to RP. If someone wants out of the IC relationship, they havent ruined your character. I refuse to believe that the entire viability of the character exists because of THAT particular dick. If someone wants out...you gotta let them go.
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@teethteethteeth said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:
When is the appropriate time to announce OOCly "I'm masturbating to this!" because I seem to get it wrong every time.
At Thanksgiving Dinner with your grandparents. Trust me.
In a MU sense? With me? Never.
I dont care if people fap to my Bodacious Harlequin Fabio-Covered Prose, but for OOC separation purposes don't want to know that you're fapping to it at all. Thatd be like calling your parents while you're jerking off and saying "Dad, I'm jerking off right now"
Because then your dad would kiiiiiiinda be like: "Uh...did something I do there just aid in an improper breach of family lines?"
Probably not the best explanation.
LordVladMcSexy made you fap. Not Ghost. That's how I like it.
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I'm finding all of this super fascinating. Except the last few posts.
@Ghost gdi, you posted something serious while I was typing.
ALRIGHT, back on target:
I ten billion percent agree with @insomniac7809 and @Roz said. If you're going to cheat ICly and you LEGIT are keeping things 100% IC, then you have to leave some tells. Pose some bite marks (seriously, do people DO THAT IRL? Don't answer, I don't actually want to know.), or random undies, or whatever. There has to be an IC way to respond to that kind of information or some way to find it out. Even if you don't pose those things to THEM directly, do it to their friends who will go or WHATEVER. But give a way for the story to go forward.MOVING ON:
If your PC is going to cheat IC on another character do you feel obligated to let your partner's player know?
If you guys are already talking OOCly, then fuck yes. I always thought it was a super jerk move when someone was 'omg so happy chatty' and then their character was cheating but they never said anything. That's Grossss.
Do you think you are responsible for a character whose roleplay is related to yours if your paths are to separate? In other words do you feel guilty someone else's PC might become quote/unquote unplayable because of your IC choices?
Very closely related to the above, what if the choice that takes a PC mostly off the table is OOC? For instance if you stop being active on my PC's spouse to play an alt with Theno's PC. Do I have the moral high ground to get pissed off?Gonna lump these together because they are super close. Number 1- no. I do not make your character unplayable. YOU make your character unplayable by refusing to branch out and find new avenues of RP outside of our relationship. Can it be a major hurtle? Absolutely. The first time my shy bi-ass greenrider lost his first major love because he found a girl while they were taking a break I cried all across New Mexico. However, I never ever EVER told the player how I felt. Instead I found new things to do with K'vv and he is still a huge part of my heart. He became so important to me BECAUSE of his growth. Ending a relationship isn't the end of the character unless the player doesn't do something to keep it going.
If I'm getting ghosted I do have a right to be angry. If they're still holding onto a character that mine is tied up with and they refuse to give me some closure, I'm going to be bitter. They need to (wo)man up, tell me it's over (ICly/OOCly, I don't care) so I can move the fuck on. We don't even have to break up on camera, that's fine. Whatever. But don't put me in a closet and expect me to stay there forever.When it comes to TS what's the correct way to suggest it? Do you let the RP become more explicit until the big words come out or you get told no? Do you page the other player first and explicitly ask if they want to do it? Something else?
I generally let the RP lead to it, but when I realize it's gonna get hot I've grown a spine in the last year or so to go firmly, "No, I don't want this." Then HANDWAVE HANDWAVE HANDWAVE and it's fine. I will say that I've had A LOT fewer RP requests for one-on-one scenes since I put my "FTB Only" disclaimer on my female PC's +fingers. I've also found an uptick in the number of male players who DON'T read my finger who after I go "FTB plz" go 'okay!' and then never RP with me again.
Assuming OOC consent between adult players is there anything in an IC relationship, including TS, that you consider unethical? No, I'm not going to give examples since I'm keeping this classy! But you can.
I am fairly conservative IRL, so there is a LOT that I would find super objectionable. But as long as I can live in my corner and pretend that stuff isn't happening, I don't care. Just don't tell me. Please. God. Don't. Tell. Me.
Others
Okay. So. Here's a situation I found myself in. A character who was a friend of mine was sleeping/dating another character. NOT with my character. We'd still RP (friend and I) fairly often. I got PAGES upon PAGES of messages from their partner "weather checking" "So, you guys are just friends right?" "I'm worried he's cheating on her" "You aren't sleeping with him, right?" -- On, and on, and on. It drove me INSANE since my character was straight up gay and had ZERO interest in this character-friend that way. I, of course, told my friend what was happening (oh, and I reported it, but that staff was junk so). When does it fall on my friend to tell her IC partner, "You have to stop, and if this doesn't, <insert consequence here>.?
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I played one of your romantic leads long ago, and it was really a lot of fun.
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@Ganymede only shuns me for romance.
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With the nature of mushes being what they are, I think it's reasonable to expect every relationship being poly unless it's explicitly exclusive. I've had a few fun romances over the years, but the fun ones were always with the idea that if one of the players disappears for a few weeks without warning, it's A-OK to romance someone else.
Whenever I've had exclusive relationships, it's always been a dumpster fire when my character reacts ICly to having their SO in the middle of a purple pose when they show up home. Like, if you want to rp successfully sneaking around cheating on an oblivious partner, go to an OOC stage or use pages or something, don't use our home.
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@SG said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:
With the nature of mushes being what they are, I think it's reasonable to expect every relationship being poly unless it's explicitly exclusive.
If you say so, but there are outliers. Pretty much every meaningful IC relationship I have had has been monogamous, right down to Wes from Fear and Loathing (he was crazy).
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@SG I think that for most people - and yes, there are exceptions - the real issue isn't really possessiveness over a partner. Sure, that happens but I'm not convinced it's the real cause.
I think in most cases it comes down to either ego crossing over the IC/OOC line ("you cheated on/dumped me!") or the impact to a roleplay someone really liked.
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@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:
@Ganymede only shuns me for romance.
Me too! What gives?