Good TV

Groth · May 19, 2020, 6:39 PM

Re: Zoey,

My guess is the choreography is meh because your main 'name' cast aren't actually dancers, they're actors who can ..kinda move. And kinda sing. But mostly not so much.

If watching 'Let's dance' has taught me anything, it's that a good choreographer can make anyone look good.

surreality · May 19, 2020, 6:42 PM

@Groth I hold myself up as evidence this isn't true. No, I'm not going to prove it, but I can assure you that years and years of dance lessons most certainly did.

Roz · May 19, 2020, 7:14 PM

So I haven't watched Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist, but I did religiously watch Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, which also had full musical numbers every episode. CXG took good advantage of its cast's differing capabilities both vocally and physically, but tbh a number of its lead cast are Broadway, musical theatre vets. But even then, you're gonna have differing levels of capability on the triple threat spectrum. Vincent Rodriguez, who played Josh, has a solid voice but is a dancer, and he was given several dance numbers over the years to show that off. Santino Fontana (the original Josh) and Donna Lynne Champlin (Paula) both have ridiculous voices and they're strong movers, but neither of them are known as dancers in New York. (David Hull, who played White Josh, is a really strong dancer, but actually barely ended up showing it off.) CXG's choreography was also fantastic at evoking and honing in on specific styles. The other thing it did was just -- you know, have backup dancers filling out a number, as solos were the more common. When someone is just there to dance, you get someone who's fantastic at dancing.

I cannot speak to Zoey's choreography. But CXG did it very well! (Hello, I loved CXG so very, very much, and everyone should watch it.)

bear_necessities · May 19, 2020, 7:18 PM

@Roz I loved CXG and was super hopeful that Zoey's would take it's place.

It didn't. At all. I miss CXG

wahoo · May 19, 2020, 7:22 PM

@Roz I agree, CXG did an amazing job of finding & using their cast --

BUT

CXG was also a CABLE show AND they had fewer episodes per season than normal broadcast (13-18 vs 22) ..and we're also comparing a single season to four, but cable vs broadcast is probably a more important apples to oranges sorta thing. Cable can get away with lesser knowns & new talent in a way broadcast can't (or won't).

I really like both of these shows. They're very different though!

Warma Sheen · May 20, 2020, 1:52 AM

@wahoo said in Good TV:

@Admiral said in Good TV:

@wahoo So you're saying that quality shouldn't be based on what is accomplished, but on what is intended?

I am. You wanna put together a 45 minute musical in 7-10 days?

Is it okay if it sucks since he's not a producer/choreographer/actor/etc.?

@wahoo said in Good TV:

@Warma-Sheen

I don't know how to answer this. Yes. That's how this business works. In order to get things made, you hire people who are known to the industry. Most of those people are not triple threats. No one is going to hire a nobody.

ETA: MOST people in Los Angeles aren't triple threats. TRUST.

Yes, that is an exaggeration, obviously. But there are quite a few. Are they well known? No. But then again the only person I recognized from the show (and admittedly I don't watch a lot of TV) is Lauren Graham and Skylar Astin. And even they aren't big names. Its FOX. Which is just a step up from WB. The could have and should have done better.

Also, their time limitations are their own fault. Maybe hire more than one choreographer if that is an issue. Again, you don't get a pass for crappy production when your job is to produce a good show.

All the criticisms aside, I just to remind that outside of the heartsongs, I really liked the show.

wahoo · May 20, 2020, 1:52 AM

@Warma-Sheen said in Good TV:

@wahoo said in Good TV:

@Admiral said in Good TV:

@wahoo So you're saying that quality shouldn't be based on what is accomplished, but on what is intended?

I am. You wanna put together a 45 minute musical in 7-10 days?

Is it okay if it sucks since he's not a producer/choreographer/actor/etc.?

@wahoo said in Good TV:

@Warma-Sheen

I don't know how to answer this. Yes. That's how this business works. In order to get things made, you hire people who are known to the industry. Most of those people are not triple threats. No one is going to hire a nobody.

ETA: MOST people in Los Angeles aren't triple threats. TRUST.

Yes, that is an exaggeration, obviously. But there are quite a few. Are they well known? No. But then again the only person I recognized from the show (and admittedly I don't watch a lot of TV) is Lauren Graham and Skylar Astin. And even they aren't big names. Its FOX. Which is just a step up from WB. The could have and should have done better.

Also, their time limitations are their own fault. Maybe hire more than one choreographer if that is an issue. Again, you don't get a pass for crappy production when your job is to produce a good show.

All the criticisms aside, I just to remind that outside of the heartsongs, I really liked the show.

Woof, okay.

It's not FOX. It's NBC. NBC is one of the Big Four. WB doesn't even exist anymore so. What.
With apologies because this term is so stupid: these people are names. Jane Levy is a big name. Lauren Graham is a bigger name. Mary Steenburgen is a HUGE name. Everyone else is also a name -- they've worked before, generally in big roles and in big projects and on network. These are long-lasting working actors with recognizable faces AND track records that advertisers like.

Also, their time limitations are their own fault. Maybe hire more than one choreographer if that is an issue. Again, you don't get a pass for crappy production when your job is to produce a good show.

Ugh, this is so offensive and shitty-- time limitations are not their fault. That's how network television works. That's how ALL television works: it's fast. It moves really, really fast. You want 22 episodes of tv a year? It's fast.

Glad you like the show. Sure doesn't seem like it.

Warma Sheen · May 20, 2020, 2:18 AM

@wahoo said in Good TV:

With apologies because this term is so stupid: these people are names. Jane Levy is a big name. Lauren Graham is a bigger name. Mary Steenburgen is a HUGE name. Everyone else is also a name -- they've worked before, generally in big roles and in big projects and on network. These are long-lasting working actors with recognizable faces AND track records that advertisers like.

Agree to disagree. We'd be here till eternity debating what counts as a big name.

@wahoo said in Good TV:

Ugh, this is so offensive and shitty-- time limitations are not their fault. That's how network television works. That's how ALL television works: it's fast. It moves really, really fast. You want 22 episodes of tv a year? It's fast.

If you know what the timetable of a network TV show is... shouldn't they? So if they need to hire the right amount of people (for example, more than one choreographer) to make their show work, then that's what they need to do. Would you say the same thing if they had only one set and no props because they only hired one grip and he didn't have enough time to move things around for different scenes? Would you say the same thing if they stood around for half of the show just looking at each other because they hired only one writer and he didn't have enough time to write and edit a full show every week? "Not enough time" is not an excuse.

What they did was go cheap on the signing and dancing and unfortunately it showed in the product. If it doesn't get picked up for Season 2, I would not be surprised. But I do think someone else might be willing to take the option and continue the show elsewhere.

Not to mention the fact that plenty of shows manage to get a full 22-24 episodes done year in and year out (and this show only did 12 episodes).

Roz · May 20, 2020, 2:20 AM

@Warma-Sheen The limitations @wahoo is describing wouldn't be fixed by additional choreographers. It's about the limitations of dance proficiency and rehearsal time.

wahoo · May 20, 2020, 2:25 AM

Dude, Mary Steenburgen is a flipping Oscar winner.

I am telling you for a fact that these people are huge industry names. I work in this industry. There is no argument to be had here, it's not a debate.

I think you're just being obstinate & ragging on a show instead of bothering to understand what goes into making it and no amount of trying to explain the limitations of the industry is going to help.

Auspice · May 20, 2020, 3:00 AM

'Time limitations' is not just 'this is how long they have to rehearse a single song.'

If you want to understand some of what the TV process is, here's a couple books:
https://www.amazon.com/Write-TV-Your-Head-Screen/dp/0415710898
https://www.amazon.com/Showrunners-Art-Running-TV-Show/dp/1783293578

(These, plus having had to write a spec script in school, plus all the interviews, guest speakers, etc. are why I decided I could never, ever do it. The rapid fire turn around, demand, etc. is just so insane that I know I'd never have the stamina. Actual filming is not a week long on network TV, oh no. Oh no no no no.)

Jynxbox · May 20, 2020, 2:42 PM

@wahoo I think the point is that everyone making TV has the same limitations. There's nothing special about this one. Except maybe that they only did half the shows most do. That's not an excuse.

Making TV is hard. Okay. If you say so. What does that have to do with this discussion? Its not about whether making TV is hard. Its that the show's choreography was both poorly performed and repetitive. It was. Sorry if that offends you personally.

Other shows have managed to do it. And do it well. It can be done. This show just failed at it.

ETA: You can dislike one part of the show and still like the show overall. I didn't. But others can. Your opinion is not fact just because you "work in the industry".

ZekeTheG33k · May 20, 2020, 1:37 PM

@Jynxbox I agree, and for me the poor production values of the musical numbers is part of the charm. The way I see it is, that she is interpreting their heart songs, and because she's a crappy dancer, she doesn't know any better, so everyone is a crappy dancer. This for me is part of the charm. I personally love the show, everything about it.

wahoo · May 20, 2020, 2:12 PM

@Jynxbox said in Good TV:

@wahoo I think the point is that everyone making TV has the same limitations. There's nothing special about this one. Except maybe that they only did half the shows most do. That's not an excuse.

They also had half the time. Production shut down in the middle of the shooting season so they weren’t given the back nine.

AND IT IS A GODDAMN MUSICAL. Other shows aren’t musicals.

Making TV is hard. Okay. If you say so.

Oh f you.

This conversation is no longer what is good tv and has gone so far off topic. I’m out.

Warma Sheen · May 20, 2020, 2:43 PM

@Jynxbox Its fine. I can see where someone who is in the industry might be super sensitive to the subject. Not that its cool to completely dismiss someone's completely objective opinion, but I can understand where it might be coming from. Its probably the reason that I'm critical of the dancing on the show. I danced. Up until the coronavirus I danced about three times a week. I met my wife dancing. She still teaches dance. She choreographs her own stuff. So my opinion is informed by my own experience too. I get it.

But I also get when @Seamus sees it as part of the charm. Even if I don't agree, I can see where that is coming from. And it is awesome that it made the experience better for someone else even if it ruined it for me.

What I think is cool is that even with completely differing ideas about the dancing and singing itself, most everyone commenting so far has still liked the show. Hopefully it comes back for a second season, but if it didn't, I would understand that too. And I'd pray another company picks up the rights and keeps it going.

Cupcake · May 20, 2020, 3:08 PM

Motherland: Fort Salem renewed for season 2.

Ganymede · May 20, 2020, 3:59 PM

@Warma-Sheen said in Good TV:

What I think is cool is that even with completely differing ideas about the dancing and singing itself, most everyone commenting so far has still liked the show. Hopefully it comes back for a second season, but if it didn't, I would understand that too. And I'd pray another company picks up the rights and keeps it going.

Maybe the big take-away from this is that there were circumstances which made perfect, beautiful choreography impossible, so if there's another season coming the new producers should take that into consideration moving forward.

Very few shows were stellar in their first season, but if they make enough of an impact to compel studios to produce more seasons then you can learn lessons and produce a better product.

To-wit: the Simpsons, Married ... with Children, or any other show that survived more than three seasons.

Rinel · May 21, 2020, 1:37 AM

Avatar The Last Airbender is as good as everyone said it would be.

I feel like a kid again watching it. The part of me that usually is like "ugh kid stuff" is just... quiet. It's really, really good.

Even though I had to find it elsewhere because Netflix has a quality so bad it's unwatchable.

Auspice · May 21, 2020, 1:41 AM

everyone should watch Avatar. And then watch Korra because it is awesome and is p much the first blatantly bi cartoon character Nickelodeon has allowed.

Auspice · May 22, 2020, 8:27 AM

The Great had a stronger season finale than I expected. It was fun, Nicholas Hoult was a delight as always and I'm really hopeful season 2 will be just as fun.