Jun 11, 2020, 4:44 PM
@Kanye-Qwest I suspect a lot of the pushback you initially got with Arx and some of the concepts comes from people having experiences like this elsewhere over time.
Diversity Representation in MU*ing
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@Warma-Sheen said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I have never bought into the idea that the N-word is "reclaimed", mostly because I've never heard it used in a context than it was used originally: negative. The only thing people have done is normalize the idea of being negative to their friend groups - which is a rather normal, standard-practice unhealthy relationship dynamic. The same people calling their friends the N-word are also calling them bitches, motherfuckers, etc. I have yet to hear the N-word used in a positive context.
A lot of women I know use our friends as kind of emotional punching bags to express the anger we don't feel safe expressing in the situation that actually provoked it. I sometimes wonder if the behavior you describe is a similar phenomenon: oppressed people venting their anger in small bursts in safe settings.
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Either way, anyone saying that playing a POC in an RP is cultural appropriation is completely objectively wrong. Though as the example above proved, someone can be a whole ass and it can definitely turn into something racist lol. To me this is just common sense though. That "everything is offensive and understanding how not to be insulting is hard" stuff people always say is nonsense. I know far more white people who understand basic respect and not being a whole ass than ones who don't, so I really don't think it's that complicated.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying play a POC if you aren't comfortable with it, but not doing it because you think people will find it inherently insulting and offensive and all this other stuff is really only a valid reason if you literally have no idea how not to insult another human being. If the reason is "I don't feel comfortable because I'm concerned about being disrespectful", that's one thing, but the way you worded it has a very inflammatory "the SJWs will absolutely fucking destroy me" vibe. I can't imagine someone complaining to you that "RPing as a black person is basically blackface" outside of like a random 13 year old on Twitter whose entire understanding of social issues is memes.
The vast majority of people are fairly reasonable. I am not concerned about their reaction. I'm worried about the people who will conflate a white person playing a black one as racist and cultural appropriation. I think I could play a black character and pull it off reasonably well. But there are people who have nothing better to do than find the next person who is 'wrong' on the internet, and 'take them down'.
If you can't imagine someone doing it, you don't have much of an imagination. As I said originally, I'd rather take the safer option.
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@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I play POC and other genders/orientations quite frequently, and no one has ever said anything like this to me.
I am happy that you've had a good experience in playing other genders, orientations and PoC. But I have seen people had strips tore out of them, verbally, for doing what Egg suggested. Banned for doing so, as well, with the crass comment of, "Player is probably of the type to wear a nurse's outfit or Native chieftain costume for Halloween." I didn't stay long there.
EDIT: Took out some snarkiness.
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@TheBigD said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I play POC and other genders/orientations quite frequently, and no one has ever said anything like this to me.
I am happy that you've had a good experience in playing other genders, orientations and PoC. But I have seen people had strips tore out of them, verbally, for doing what Egg suggested. Banned for doing so, as well, with the crass comment of, "Player is probably of the type to wear a nurse's outfit or Native chieftain costume for Halloween." I didn't stay long there.
EDIT: Took out some snarkiness.
As a nurse, feel free. But it should have bodily fluids on it, be trousers, and have a pen stain mark on the pockets.
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OK, I'll tackle this one (and please fill me in, JinShei, if there is something?)...
What is the issue with dressing as a nurse for Halloween? Or, I presume, a firefighter or doctor or any number of other professions?
I can understand the reasoning with regional cultural clothing being worn (especially for Halloween) but I have to admit, the whole subject is aughsville to me for a catalogue of reasons.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality
This is also the first place I've heard anyone complain about nurse costumes and would love to know where this comes from. I get that 'sexy nurse' is a trope but 'sexy everything' is a trope in Halloween costumes and doesn't seem a nurse-specific issue. -
@Three-Eyed-Crow Ok. Sexy nurse is annoying.
<rant>It is annoying because the profession already battles against the handmaiden issue. Because we actually have trouble with people seeing beyond the trope. Sexy nurse, angel, handmaiden. Not, you know, professional who has extremely strong decision making, communication, risk assessment and other skills, with a massive knowledge base. Here is a quick run down on why it is a problem.. I've literally experienced those problems - I said trousers because a patient put his hand up my skirt. I've been dismissed by doctors as "only a nurse" when I'm a nurse practitioner with a masters and prescribing qualified in two countries... We're not sexy handmaidens. </rant>
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@Three-Eyed-Crow Agreed, the 'sexy X' thing is always pretty gross to me, but just... a nurse? Period?!
I know there can be issues with some military costumes if they use pieces of real military gear bought from a surplus store or somesuch in some areas, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
Re: the clothing NOT on Halloween issue... well, fashion exists as 'is inspired by and reinterprets', and always has. I have a bunch of stuff that people would flip their shit about me wearing now that I bought in Japan or Hong Kong from people thrilled to have me try stuff on and buy stuff, and were anything but 'angry at/insulted by the teenage white girl trying to steal their culture', and were pleasantly surprised at the questions I was asking about how they were made/etc. since I knew about what I was looking at. I always planned to display some of that collection -- because, bluntly, kimono-making is an amazing art form -- if I had the space to do so, but I wouldn't even do that now. So I have some amazing things that will moulder forever in archival boxes in a hall closet until I die and they get donated to a costume museum somewhere.
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@JinShei
Now I know! I'd just never seen it as a complaint for nurse costumes specifically. -
I think the 'sexy <X>' costumes are a massive problem, period. For the people they represent, but also for the people wearing them.
Talk about a toxic trend that is best retired. -
@TheBigD said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I play POC and other genders/orientations quite frequently, and no one has ever said anything like this to me.
I am happy that you've had a good experience in playing other genders, orientations and PoC. But I have seen people had strips tore out of them, verbally, for doing what Egg suggested. Banned for doing so, as well, with the crass comment of, "Player is probably of the type to wear a nurse's outfit or Native chieftain costume for Halloween." I didn't stay long there.
EDIT: Took out some snarkiness.
Yikes.
But, also, that's kind of a good thing as it shows you the type of environment it is. I would much rather know up front if there is a crazy drama bomb waiting to explode.
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@Kanye-Qwest I suspect a lot of the pushback you initially got with Arx and some of the concepts comes from people having experiences like this elsewhere over time.
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@JinShei said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
It is annoying because the profession already battles against the handmaiden issue. Because we actually have trouble with people seeing beyond the trope.
I'm pretty well known in my area, so no one makes the mistake of thinking I'm anything but a lawyer. My associates have not been so lucky, having been mistaken for court reporters and paralegals despite being dressed up a stereotypical lawyer.
Like, this one time I went with one of them to a deposition, and opposing counsel said something like "wow, Ganymede, you sure know how to find a good paralegal."
To which I responded, "I know, Gary, but this is Sarah, she's my associate, and she's the one that will be handling the deposition today and the remainder of the proceedings; I'm just here for comic relief."
The look on that guy's face, lol.
Misogyny will follow no matter how you're dressed.
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@JinShei said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
As a nurse, feel free. But it should have bodily fluids on it, be trousers, and have a pen stain mark on the pockets.
Hah, fair enough.
But I suspect they meant the "sexy" nurse outfit. If I were going as a nurse for Halloween, it would be scrubs and enough blood and gore to make someone wonder if I was the survivor or the zombie. xD -
@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Yikes.
But, also, that's kind of a good thing as it shows you the type of environment it is. I would much rather know up front if there is a crazy drama bomb waiting to explode.
There is that. But sometimes you don't know it's a drama bomb until it's too late.
And it's one thing if it's just a player or two. It's far worse when it's an admin.
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@TheBigD that... Was kinda my point. See above for sexy nurse bullshit.
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Maaaan, I never realized so many people had feelings regarding tedious details.
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SparklesTheClown Creator Banned last edited by SparklesTheClown Jun 12, 2020, 12:51 PM Jun 12, 2020, 12:13 AM
I mean, I'm just throwing it out there, and this applies to quite a few things so I'm not tagging anyone specifically, but a POC is capable of saying something objectively wrong. Like, this happens damned near literally half the time anyone mentions cultural appropriation on the internet, because so many people, POC or otherwise, never bother to actually learn what appropriation even is and conflate it with "I don't like this". When you compile POC being wrong about something and white people having no concept of what the thing is, you mostly just get a bunch of confusion that mostly serves to hurt more than help.
My point is, I can imagine all sorts of people doing something rather ignorant, it happens every day, but not doing something because someone on the internet can be both wrong and angry at the same time isn't really a reason not to. I'm, again, not advocating that anyone do anything outside of their comfort zone, but if anyone in this thread said that a white person playing a black person or whatever is basically blackface, someone please present me with that so I can see the argument. So far I've mostly seen people annoyed at grossly bad portrayals that I feel are more common sense things than anything.
But yeah, just, like, there's really only two possible explanations for situations like these.
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The person playing the character is doing so on a degree so bad that it's obviously bothering people (I have seen this happen before and on some occasions I have seen it be so extremely bad that I was like "How is it possible that they have no idea how bad this is?")
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The person accusing the player of not doing something correctly is obviously wrong in some way and has a misunderstanding of what they're even talking about in such a way that it would be obvious to most people observing.
In my personal experience, #1 has frequently been the case on any game I've seen this happen on, and it's usually when people have reached the point of "wow I wish this person would go the fuck away". #2 I've seen happen but to a significantly lesser degree. Though that story I read on the last page with the Maori bow or whatever is pretty wtf, seems like something a white person being very bizarrely cautious would say without thinking. Like, why would a person on modern day Earth somehow be barred from learning a skill due to their racial requirements???
Either way, a lot of the stories I've read here seem like they're severely lacking in context, as I can think of all kinds of reasons that a lot of this shit would happen. But I legitimately don't think that obvious bad faith or misinformed arguments should be allowed to control things or people, and if I saw someone saying some obviously misinformed shit in a MU I would address it. I just plain don't want white people knowingly following a bad faith or misinformed argument just because they're afraid of being disrespectful. I get that it's a tough goddamned rock and a hard place to be in, but to me it does you and also myself a disservice when I then have to turn around and be like "oh yeah that person was obviously full of shit".
I'm not gonna lie, I'd be (and have been) annoyed as shit if a white person tried to "no actually" me about race stuff, but there's polite ways to bring stuff up. Like, "Hey, what you're saying isn't the same as what I read at <source>, can you look at this and tell me if it's accurate or not?". There's just little things like that, if you're really worried about being polite. You just can't let obvious dumb shit influence and hold a MU hostage. And if someone is gonna have a tantrum, fine. I've seen Cirno try to hold people emotionally hostage with race shit before, and all it does is hurt me and any other POC or marginalized person. It just can't be tolerated.
But, on the flip side, every criticism of what someone does isn't a take-down or assassination attempt. Sometimes you did do something wrong, sometimes you did fuck up playing that character, and sometimes you just need to take the L when it gets explained to you and not develop some weird years long bizarre trauma because someone said you're bad at black characters.
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@HelloProject
It was this A+ winner of a post.https://musoapbox.net/topic/3249/diversity-representation-in-mu-ing/242?_=1591921257071
Which I umm am not basing any of my life decisions on.
Edited why are things hard to link
It's at the bottom of the page.