Pandemic Era Issues

Ominous

Not necessarily. A lot of these ninnies work around livestock, so they are familiar with ivermectin. They just have never injected a horse's dose into themselves before now.

Also, this just shows why those One Weird Trick ads lasted so long. There's a market for that idea.

faraday

@ominous said in Pandemic Era Issues:

Not necessarily. A lot of these ninnies work around livestock, so they are familiar with ivermectin. They just have never injected a horse's dose into themselves before now.

Right. Also the ivermectin thing is more complicated than common narrative of "Haha look at the dummies taking horse medicine."

Even the FDA's "You are not a horse...Stop it." PSA notes (emphasis mine):

For humans, ivermectin tablets are approved at very specific doses to treat some parasitic worms, and there are topical (on the skin) formulations for head lice and skin conditions like rosacea.

There are actually various studies investigating ivermectin as a potential treatment for covid along with a variety of other anti-parasitics. Note again the language of the FDA (emphasis mine):

Currently available data do not show ivermectin is effective against COVID-19. Clinical trials assessing ivermectin tablets for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19 in people are ongoing.

They're not saying it absolutely doesn't work; they're saying that it's still being studied. Why is it still being studied? Because some researchers believe that there may be some benefit to treatment with anti-parasitics.

There were even some early pre-print (not-yet-peer-reviewed) studies showing that there might be something good there. The problem is - once those studies came under review, serious flaws were identified. So new studies were planned to look into it more. This is pretty much what happened with hydroxychloroquine too.

That's science in action, happening exactly as it's supposed to... only now it's live, evolving in real-time, on a world stage.

The problem is that we have a vicious perfect storm of echo chambers, half-baked media headlines, politicization, and science illiteracy (note: this is different than "intelligence"; lots of smart humans are not fluent in the scientific method) leading people to make really dumb decisions.

Then those dumb decisions get overblown to ludicrous heights by more bad journalism, echo chambers, politicization on the other side until we have a freaking culture war over an anti-parasitic drug.

Insane. Maddening. Heartbreaking. All the adjectives that make me so worked up at 3am I can't sleep and instead am here ranting.

Derp

@faraday

This is why we need to teach peer review way, way before college. All of the Big Leap Forward science stories I remember being taught in school, many of which are complete bullshit anyway, just talk about someone making a discovery like some rogue mad scientist and the world just kind of adjusting to accommodate.

We need to start teaching it as methodology, not divine inspiration, pretty much as soon as we start teaching it.

silverfox

@derp

And FUNDING doing the follow-up studies to prove the first one was actually legit, rather than only funding 'novel' research.

Derp

@silverfox said in Pandemic Era Issues:

@derp

And FUNDING doing the follow-up studies to prove the first one was actually legit, rather than only funding 'novel' research.

Yes.

It has to be testable and repeatable.

faraday

@derp @silverfox Yes yes yes - so much yes.

And somehow deal with the media angle. Headlines like "Study shows chocolate cures everything!" Actually no, it didn't. A preliminary, non-peer-reviewed, pre-print study with a microscopic sample size showed a barely-interesting possible correlation that should maybe be looked at a little deeper.

mietze

Just because someone is a wannabe rural redneck/tough gal/has researched having a cow and chickens for their apocalypse farm (but doesn't even have the emotional wherewithal to stay home for two weeks and shelter in place without throwing tantrums at people) doesn't mean they're familiar with livestock dewormer.

Farmers aren't taking it. People following their preacher/talkie host/chiropractor/you tube doctor are (buy it through my affiliated link, y'all!!) And most of them had never even heard of ivermectin before this im pretty sure.

What is interesting to me is seeing how people who clearly know that the advice to take it is crank but who also feel spiritually and socially bound to nod along deal with the cognitive dissonance. But also scary because that makes people lash out at "othered" people even more.

I wonder how much the top tier people at doterra and young living are making over the last little while. I see lots of people working hard to sell their cure/prevention which is doubly sad since none of the people now will make money off of it themselves as they annoy and maybe even facilitate killing off some of their neighbors and friends "working their business." Wonder if amway was a take too or shaklee/all the other "nutrition" mlms got a little boost for their top tiers also.

The MLMs tend to prey on these communities too.

Macha

Apparently ( I can't find the link anymore), the dumb super doses of the Ivermectin has seriously numbers of messing up men's fertility.

Ganymede

@faraday

This is very interesting, but also very infuriating.

If an idiot is “smart” enough to not trust the vaccines, but also “smart” enough to know that ivermectin is being studied closely, then forgive me if I believe they need to go first.

Testament

I'm not even angry about it anymore. I simply don't care. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

These people wanting to spout "muh freedoms" don't seem to understand how vaccines have always been mandatory in some situations.

In school or college you had to be up to date on all your vaccines or you couldn't go to school.

Having be up to date on all your vaccines was a requirement to work in a medical setting or position

Officers in the military tending their resignation over the vaccine forget that on fucking Day 3 of BMT, you're filed down a line of nurses who jab you about four times in each arm and you didn't question it then

So fuck them. Every last one of them. They have nobody but themselves to blame for dying on this stupid hill of ignorance.

Hell of a hill to die on, but at least you're dead.

Derp

@testament said in Pandemic Era Issues:

I'm not even angry about it anymore. I simply don't care. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

These people wanting to spout "muh freedoms" don't seem to understand how vaccines have always been mandatory in some situations.

In school or college you had to be up to date on all your vaccines or you couldn't go to school.

Having be up to date on all your vaccines was a requirement to work in a medical setting or position

Officers in the military tending their resignation over the vaccine forget that on fucking Day 3 of BMT, you're filed down a line of nurses who jab you about four times in each arm and you didn't question it then

So fuck them. Every last one of them. They have nobody but themselves to blame for dying on this stupid hill of ignorance.

Hell of a hill to die on, but at least you're dead.

Preach.

faraday

@ganymede said in Pandemic Era Issues:

but also “smart” enough to know that ivermectin is being studied closely

We've had prominent podcasts, politicians and even some doctors making headlines promoting it as a "miracle cure" despite all scientific evidence to the contrary. It's not like the average American is going to take the time to go check the New England Journal of Medicine to see what they have to say on the matter.

I'm not angry at the people being misled, I'm angry at those who are deliberately misleading them for financial or political gain, and the networks and apps that are enabling them.

Derp

@faraday

While it's certainly true that echo chambers exist, at some point you have to draw a line between 'poor mislead soul' and 'willfully obtuse fool'.

The scam networks can spout whatever they want. We're literally fighting disinformation on this subject at every front. People are surrounded by legitimate, accurate information. It's not like they're not hearing it. At some point, they've simply chosen to ignore the vast amount of legitimate information in favor of the one that supports their biases, which they were going to believe anyway.

At some point, we have to move away from "you poor thing" into "bless your heart" territory.

faraday

@derp Anywhere from 1/3rd to 3/4ths of Americans now get their news from social media. These algorithms are intentionally designed to feed outrage and get engagement, not to promote good information. (Yes some have done some things like the little "fact check" alerts lately, but when your news feed is full of conspiracy theory junk, I don't think that really does much.)

About 40% trust Fox News as an accurate source of information, with 60% of Republicans saying it's their most trusted source. This network was a primary source of the original ivermectin and h-chloroquine hype.

Only 40% read past the headlines.

I can't find a source right this second, but I also remember reading that many folks get their news primarily from a single outlet.

You can blame people for not seeking out alternate sources of information, and I'm not trying to absolve them of their personal responsibility in the matter. But I think the core of the problem lies in the way that information is being allowed to be distributed and amplified. I support freedom of speech, but I feel that deliberately spreading life-threatening misinformation is akin to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.

Arkandel

https://apnews.com/article/health-colorado-public-health-coronavirus-pandemic-826ccbd61443c244a26de19bdf44b9a3

...

How does the logic go from "my freedom to not be vaccinated" to "stop others from being vaccinated"?

mietze

@arkandel vaccines have become the new satanic panic. A cultural phenomenon that has been part of settler culture and social behavior since colonial times.

If you rabbit hole for the various incidents of satanic panic over the last 50 years or so, there's a ton of similarity culturally, socially, ec.

kk

The situation is deeply complex.

But I don't think that talk like let them die and etc is not the path to healing, unity and even to fighting covid.

Ganymede

@kk said in Pandemic Era Issues:

But I don't think that talk like let them die and etc is not the path to healing, unity and even to fighting covid.

I hear you from a point of compassion, but this is quite literally the risk they are choosing and it is causing problems for people who have nothing to do with that choice.

I mean, if they were rolling around in toxic waste in an effort to gain a genetic mutation that will fight the COVID, would it be any more clear that these people are doing everything in their power to hurt or kill themselves?

kk

Should we deny care to an African American woman who refused the vaccine because her grandfather was medically experimented on by the medical system? And who truly believes that the vaccine itself might be hurting her community and that she did the righ thting by denying such? Some believe the vaccine spreads covid reather than the other way around and they really believe that.

There are a few communities who are refusing the vaccine and the fear in these communities is a very real thing.

/Let them die/ and similar statements said by people who are educated and so forth to communities who are less educated is not going to do much to encourage others to take the vaccine, if anything that kind of lang encourages doubling down on the issues and enhances the fear.

Arkandel

@kk I can certainly understand the need to be compassionate. And I agree that is necessary to embrace our neighbors even if when they are being... difficult.

However just how far that can extend before it's met at least halfway is certainly debatable. Do you accept that woman's child to the same school yours goes to, knowing they may transfer Covid-19 and get your elderly relative killed? Do you accept them working at the DMV/grocery store you must also go to as part of your daily life?

There is nuance here. I don't classify anti-vaxxers in the same category as say, white supremacists, but there are also limits to how much I can tolerate.

Especially because it's my life, and those of my family's, who are being profoundly impacted by not simply the pandemic itself - meaning the medical aspects of it - but also the financial implications of a prolonged lockdown that could arguably be over, or much relaxed, if people did the bare minimum to help us get through it.