Races in fantasy settings

[Arkandel]

Please note this thread was created in the 'Mildly Constructive' section. If it goes off the rails I'll ask admins to lock it. I hope it doesn't!

So I laughed earlier at this LotR meme on my FB feed - something about an Elf shaking a Dwarf's hand in superiority to humans but then needing to wash his hands.

How do you feel about racism in fantasy gaming? For example D&D is moving away from racial modifiers. Do you think such efforts have an effect and if so, is it a positive one?

Does this sort of thing matter to you?

[GreenFlashlight]

I think racism in fantasy gaming is unavoidable, and I can't talk about why without explaining my perspective.

I'm American. In my culture, racism isn't just the presence of racial stereotypes on others; it's also the lack of racial stereotypes on the majority. For example, if a black person is angry, then that is because they are black and all black people are angry; but if a white person is angry, then that is an individual character trait which has no relationship to their race. A rich Jewish person is rich because of their Jewishness while a rich WASP is rich because of skill and bootstrapping; an Asian honor student is smart because of their race, while a white honor student is smart because of individual merit.

That lack of racialization applied to the majority is a part of racism that I think is invisible to most members of the majority, and I think that invisibility makes it very difficult to confront. To use D&D as an example, it's not just racist that elves have a specific set of racial traits applied to them, it's also racist in a supremacist way that humans--the majority race, the ones free of racialization--have completely customizable traits to pick from. Elves can only ever be good at what elves do, but humans can be just as good as elves at what they do, or what dwarves do, or what orcs do, or or or.

The reason I think racism is unavoidable in RPGs is because when you declare a race to be not human, you have to define what separates them from humanity; and if you're a good game designer, that definition has to include mechanical benefits that support the definition you create. The problem is that this same standard is never applied to humanity. Human characters are never defined: there is nothing a human can't be, can't do, can't have experienced. Humans are individuals, who have varied and individual experiences. Other races, by the nature of not being human, are a collective who are incapable of existing outside of that definition of not-human.

As you're reading this, perhaps you're thinking to yourself that I'm overlooking an obvious possibility here: that it is absolutely possible for writers to apply the same level of racialization to humans as they do to non-human races, to define what humans can be and therefore what humans cannot be. And yeah, sure, that's technically possible, but I've never seen anyone do it yet. Maybe I'm just reading the wrong RPGs.

[Derp]

I'm not really sure that we're talking about the same things though.

Most of us are familiar with the concept of racism, but in your original fantasy works you aren't really talking about race. You're essentially talking about different species that are just lumped into the 'races of men'. You aren't really talking about the kinds of differences you'd see in something like Japanese versus Kenyan, you're talking about differences even more pronounced than between Homo sapiens and neanderthal.

The various sapient creature types in classical fantasy are designed from the ground up to register in the uncanny valley, marking them as distinctly inhuman. They are supposed to strike us as 'other', so if you look at it through a lens of what we see as racism, then -- I mean, yeah, you're gonna see racism, because they are being other-ed and compared.

I don't think there's an actual answer to that. I know that Pathfinder 2E is trying to make them more like actual races of men and less like different species but it feels really forced and kind of ham-fisted, the way they did it. But I think so long as you are using a model that is obviously and meant-to-be something other than 'generic human' you will always see those types of comparisons, just based on human instinct.

Notably, though -- you rarely see the humans at the top of the food chain there. They are typically the weaker of the options available in whatever way. So I think that the directionality matters, as in the original example. If a "superior" species is being condescending to a human, does the directionality of it make a difference? Doesn't it then become just another tool to show that it's unpleasant to be on the receiving end of such criticism?

[ZombieGenesis]

Boy, I wrote a lot and ultimately decided to delete it. I don't think any of hit was argumentative or inflammatory or anything, there was just a lot of it and I don't think people are that interested in anything I have to say. So I'll summarize my thoughts below.

In regards to racial modifiers in games, I think options are always good. I very much enjoy the toolkit approach to gaming and think that players should be able to create whatever version of a character they want regardless of the status quo in the game world. Sure, in this world elves might be agile and frail compared to other races but why does my elf have to be?

So getting away from racial modifiers is a good thing, IMO.

As for racial friction(elves vs dwarves) or races/species being based off of RL racial stereotypes...That's trickier. It's easy for me to say I don't think X or Y is offensive or to justify it existing when I'm not part of X or Y's culture.

I think you could write a lot on this subject and come at it from many different angles. I think there's a fine line to walk between being inspired by something and creating a caricature of that same thing. I do think that sometimes people take the concept of cultural sensitivity too far. I also think that some people are too quick to shutdown any concern they may hear about something being culturally offensive.

Finally, does the idea of racism existing in a fantasy setting bother me? Not at all. I mean, depending on the setting certain races might hate or feel superior to other races. I think you could go on about this at length as well but, as an example, I'll throw out goblins. Humans, dwarves, elves, and most other fantasy races see themselves as superior to goblins in most fantasy settings. Does this bother me? No, not really.

TL;DR: It's complicated, man. Mechanically, options are good. Thematically, I think it's too complicated to have a blanket opinion.

[Tinuviel]

Keep in mind that I am so, so, so deeply and profoundly white that if you dropped me in snow there would immediately be a Wholefoods (insert your own local up-market, pompous, charge 1000% more for the same stuff as a regular place-style supermarket as applicable).

Racism is lazy writing. It's easy "Elves hate goblins because they're goblins."

Individual characters can be racist, though usually that's more of a 'problem to resolve' rather than something static. Entire species of people (races, species, whatever) hating another different kind of people just for being that people? Lazy.

And that's not even getting into the moralistic aspects of the problem. I just hate it because it's trite and lazy.

[faraday]

@derp said in Races in fantasy settings:

I'm not really sure that we're talking about the same things though.

Yeah that's where I'm at. Races in a fantasy or sci-fi setting are generally different species, which makes it very different than RL prejudiced ideas about other homo sapiens.

Wookiees and Cave Trolls are seven feet tall and can rip your arms off. Giving them an inherent bonus and higher maximum to their "strength" stat does not strike me as racist; it strikes me as common sense.

But when you also give trolls a negative to charisma and elves a bonus, I think it's wading into more problematic territory. Are they really less charming due to inherent characteristics of their species in your canon, or is that just a reflection of human prejudice?

[Tinuviel]

@faraday Aye, tis why fantasy worlds are often terrible at telling allegorical stories about race issues. Human ethnicities have no inherent differences beyond the superficial, whereas Orcs and Trolls or Klingons and Romulans have inherent physical differences.

[mietze]

While I don't like when fantasy races seem to be just a little too rooted in RL racial stereotypes and bugaboos, tension between different sentient species is something that doesn't bother me. I think it is a really good way to explore stories, especially as a human player, because I do think that putting people into boxes and othering people who aren't in our boxes is inseperable from human existence in many ways. I don't really like utopian game settings at all, so there just needs to be some sort of tension in a game for me to enjoy it, just for my own preferences in what I like to explore in my RP.

Colonialism/survivalism on an alien planet? Cultural and class classes? Conflict and old alliances/hatreds between different peoples of a realm? I do tend to gravitate towards that in a setting.

However, if the setting writers wrote things that seemed specifically steeped in racial slurs/stereotypes of RL I'd probably not feel comfortable playing in that.

[Misadventure]

Not directly related plug!

There have been a few recent games worth looking at for their different origins and perspectives.

Coyote & Crow TTRPG

The Wagadu Chronicle MMORPG

Into the Mother Lands TTRPG

Ehdrigohr TTRPG

There are more, those are just ones I have personal experience with.

[Ganymede]

@mietze said in Races in fantasy settings:

However, if the setting writers wrote things that seemed specifically steeped in racial slurs/stereotypes of RL I'd probably not feel comfortable playing in that.

I earnestly don't believe it to be difficult to write oppression and adversity into a setting without resorting to what we would recognize as racism.

[mietze]

@ganymede I think that depends on the viewpoint. I think it is hard for humans to unentangle all threads of racism from how they other people. So I would expect to relate to it in some way with how I see racism/classism/colonialism/oppression all around me right now. It is complicated and often has crossover.

I do not expect gamerunners to totally leave elements of that behind, but I do expect to not have to sit through thinly veiled racist stereotype garbage from RL dressed up as fantasy.

[Tinuviel]

@ganymede said in Races in fantasy settings:

@mietze said in Races in fantasy settings:

However, if the setting writers wrote things that seemed specifically steeped in racial slurs/stereotypes of RL I'd probably not feel comfortable playing in that.

I earnestly don't believe it to be difficult to write oppression and adversity into a setting without resorting to what we would recognize as racism.

Usually, they're not trying to avoid racism. They're either trying to tell an allegorical story that doesn't quite work (see Detroit: Become Human) or they're using racism as a quick "these are the bad guys" signifier (see any fantasy/sci fi world that has "Space/Fantasy Nazis"). Racism is easy to write, because it's everywhere.

[Ganymede]

@tinuviel said in Races in fantasy settings:

Racism is easy to write, because it's everywhere.

But that means oppression is more prevalent and common, and should correspondingly be easier to write.

I understand why writers fall back on the trope; I just find it boring and overdone.

[Tinuviel]

@ganymede said in Races in fantasy settings:

@tinuviel said in Races in fantasy settings:

Racism is easy to write, because it's everywhere.

But that means oppression is more prevalent and common, and should correspondingly be easier to write.

I understand why writers fall back on the trope; I just find it boring and overdone.

Sure, but it's easier for a white man to opine philosophically about how racism is bad, than for them to write about how patriarchal oppression of women is bad. For instance. It's easier to pretend that you had no hand and gained no benefit from racism, or that racism is fixed now.

[Misadventure]

I have been told that at one time (at least European) people identified more by Religion and culture than physical traits.

The Culture in Iain Banks books encompass many species and belief systems, but all under what their AI network guides think is effective or valuable. I believe they are presented as the "good culture".

[Arkandel]

@misadventure said in Races in fantasy settings:

I have been told that at one time (at least European) people identified more by Religion and culture than physical traits.

At one time ?

I assure you, having grown up in the Balkans, that's exactly how it is today and has been for... a long time. Physically there are nearly no difference between my countrymen and most of the neighboring countries (which, given the volatility in where borders were drawn over the last few millennia is probably to be expected). Hell, many of our religions are basically the same with just cosmetic differences (language, etc).

There is a lot of racism goin' on. So much racism.

[Killer Klown]

I remember, a couple of generations ago, the Ravenloft setting in D&D had a social modifier for how alien your character race was (for example, Half Orks); this was, as far as I understand it, less a question of 'hey, that guy looks different' and more 'what the hell is that?'. It worked in a horror setting, especially one where even normal looking people could be monsters and followed the typical Gothic horror trait of mistrusting outsiders (especially outsiders that already looked monstrous). It wasn't specifically about race, but race did factor into it; so, basically, I think it definitely depends on the setting.

On the flip side, I'll just paraphrase a line from the Humanis Policlub contact in Shadowrun: 'Who cares about that tan looking guy standing next to you, when that thing over there has hands the size of my head?!'

[Pyrephox]

Mechanically, I like when different character types can receive a variety of inherent features. I'm not as much into straight bonuses/penalties to stats - I feel like that's the most boring way to distinguish two different species. But things like, if we're doing D&D, darkvision? That's pretty cool. I liked the way 4E and 13th Age gave different races different ABILITIES - if you had the blood of dragons, you got a breath weapon. Fae got teleports. Etc. Things that could be adapted to a number of classes in different ways, rather than just being +2 to a stat (although they did that, too). I also like the way 13th Age gave each race AND each class a choice between two different stat bumps, so you could have almost any race/class combo without feeling like you were selling yourself short, mechanically.

Outside of mechanics, I enjoy being able to engage with concepts of prejudice and discrimination without necessarily having to bring 'real world' sexism or racism into a game; it gives it a little bit of distance, and sometimes it's fun to engage with a fight that isn't a fight you're in every day of your life. But settings without those factors are also good; I think it really comes down to what a particular group of players are comfortable with. That said, these days I have no love for 'always evil' races outside of the cosmic (demons, etc.); most of the time, it's just lazy.

[GreenFlashlight]

@killer-klown said in Races in fantasy settings:

On the flip side, I'll just paraphrase a line from the Humanis Policlub contact in Shadowrun: 'Who cares about that tan looking guy standing next to you, when that thing over there has hands the size of my head?!'

I'm not sure how I feel about that quote. It seems to imply that there's a rationality to racism and whom we choose to ostracize/oppress, such that we'll just forget generations of hate against one minority when a new one pops up rather than making room to hate them both. In my experience, that is not how it works; especially in the kind of capitalist hellscape cyberpunk is built on.

On the other hand, I can play a troll wizard asking my pet crocodile ghost to please hack the web for me, so maybe I should be okay with accepting "rational racism" as just part of the escapist fantasy.

[Arkandel]

@pyrephox And, just like in sci-fi, discussing tribalism in a completely different context can be interesting (at least in my opinion) not to reflect existing real world issues but to examine them from a different point of view.

For instance portraying a patronizing long-lived race whose numbers are dwindling down can lead to some genuinely intriguing encounters. Do they value their life more than a human's since it's so much more of a rare commodity?

Or examining what it means to transition from one group to another - something we cannot do in the real world. You become a vampire and your existence spans into centuries rather than decades; how long before you start counting yourself a member of another group? How does it affect your thinking? Is the human mind even able to stretch without going insane, can our memories last that long?

I think it's when players play these completely different races exactly the way they'd do a human, except they have long ears or whatever, that this breaks down.