Review of Recent Bans

[Ganymede]

@inherentvalue

I did make errors.

I made an error banning Coin. I completely misconstrued what he had to say. I sent a message to his account and asked Cobalt to reach out to him to let him know about the reversal.

I made an error regarding farfalla. I think it was MisterBoring who put up a post about making sure consequences matched offenses. I have historically not done this out of expediency. This is not good leadership or stewardship.

I made an error regarding Meg. Meg was always just trying to advocate for farfalla. She did this when the initial ban came down. On review, she fell into the fourth category, so I apologize for that.

And with Scar, the comment that I seem unhinged was probably a fair observation under the circumstances, and I don't think there was any intent to get banned doing so.

No member petitioned me to change my mind on the bans. Derp did most of the arguing in our discussions as to whose bans should be lifted. We didn't agree on everyone, but those we did agree on have had their bans lifted. We're still talking, but we have other concerns to deal with right now.

Accountability is one such concern.

[Misadventure]

Is therea modification for the forum that would be a request for moderation review for a given post? Not a down vote, though similar, but accessible from an administrative dashboard.

I am all for impersonal, trackable notifications like that.

PS I may over use tags in any form of database.

[Derp]

I think that it’s also important to note that neither of us want to shut down discussions on matters. There’s been a lot of talk and speculation on that line of thought given recent events and the changes to the Code of Conduct, but none of this is meant to shut down questioning, or even disagreement. We’re both open to ideas, and we’re just as capable of being wrong as anyone else is. None of what’s happened in the last few weeks has been intended to stifle discussions on matters.

We’re still willing to engage in good faith with the people who have shown they’re willing to engage us in good faith in turn. Civil discussions are always welcome, even if people don’t agree. But the loud, noisy spectacles aren’t going to get anyone anywhere. They frustrate both sides, and ultimately are a very ineffective way to get us to see that the person advocating those positions is attempting to be reasonable.

We may not agree with you. You might not get the resolution that you’re looking for. But neither of us are trying to hide the ball, either. We both believe in open communication.

But just hurling random insults and vulgarity and insisting that we concede to your demands is absolutely, in no way, going to get you the results you want.

[Derp]

@misadventure

If you tap the three dots on the right-hand side of any post, there is an option that says ‘Flag This Post for Moderation’ or something similar.

[lordbelh]

I think the most constructive path forward would've been to just cancel every last ban that happened. They were an unhelpful over-reaction to a situation that would've burned itself out if the response hadn't been so pointlessly heavy-handed.

That they didn't follow Gany's request for silence was utterly predictable. This forum, along with its predecessors (and now successor forum), was based on the idea of a place to voice the community's opinions without being beholden to the powers-that-be on the various different games we play on. It was somewhere you could stand on your soap-box and decry abuses of power, and ridicule the small tyrants that make themselves large in insulated communities. And yeah, it was a place to meet, chat, have fun, and also revel in the positive aspects of our hobby.

But the foundation was always a pretty big fuck you to the man. There was simply no way your call for silence could've engendered any response but what it did, and when you decided to enforce your authority with bans, well, that enforced the idea that you were that petty tyrant. And the righteous thing was to tell you off.

Gany, you dealt with this like you were an arbiter in a court, aloof and above the rest. You're not and you never were. You were a custodian in a town square, and while your authority here on this site is absolute, it only really matters as long as the village thinks you're good.

There's now a new forum. There's a split in the community, and the community part of this forum is honestly the only reason I pay much attention to it, so I find that a real shame. A large part of the blame for that has to be on you mods. If we're now stuck with two paralell forums, and two town squares, the least you can do is throw an olive branch out and clean the slate on your part of this mess.

Sure, there were two sides. Frankly I found the initial Derp situation went way beyond what was reasonable. That Farfalla is back suggests the second situation wasn't. Either way, it was handled horribly.

So unban everybody. What does it cost? Nothing. If they asked to be banned in the heat of the moment, or threw out some angry words while angry, well, shit happens. People say and do things when angry and full of emotions. Making them have to come and ask to return is just petty, though. If you unban, perhaps they will. Perhaps they wont. But its one less divisive wound in the community, even if everybody continues to stay on their side of the new lines.

Just my thoughts.

[Ganymede]

@lordbelh said in Review of Recent Bans:

Making them have to come and ask to return is just petty, though.

No one is asking them to do this. I'm certainly not. What I'm saying is that Derp and I are still discussing the bans, which means that there may be some future reversals; however, for right now, we are focusing on a couple of other matters.

I respect your opinion and follow your logic, but I disagree with a number of premises and ultimately your conclusion. I am trying neither to wash my hands nor save face, but to do what I believe is correct for now and under the circumstances.

[TNP]

@ganymede said in Review of Recent Bans:

@lordbelh said in Review of Recent Bans:

Making them have to come and ask to return is just petty, though.

No one is asking them to do this.

@ganymede said in Review of Recent Bans:

No member petitioned me to change my mind on the bans.

[Ganymede]

@tnp

I'm sorry, that was unclear.

Our decision to unban certain folks, and not others, was not because we were petitioned to do so by a member. We had decided to review the bans a while back, and we so far agreed on those announced. And we may decide to unban more accounts in the future.

That's what I meant to say. No one is required to petition to be let back in for their account to be unbanned. Sorry for the confusion.

[lordbelh]

@ganymede said in Review of Recent Bans:

I respect your opinion and follow your logic, but I disagree with a number of premises and ultimately your conclusion.

Fair enough, @Ganymede . I got no problem believing you're trying to do what you think is best. I see no evidence of malice. Just a lot of mistakes, and then doubling down on those mistakes. I suppose we'll see how it shakes out in the end. I sorta-kinda like this community, even with all its flaws, so ultimately I'm rooting for you.

[Groth]

I agree with lordbelh that the call for silence was misguided and doomed to fail and it follows that all bans related to that call for silence are poorly justified.

That said, this is a community not a court. I think it's much too common of a mistake for people in the hobby to consider themselves arbiters of justice rather then caretakers of the community. What matters isn't the rules or procedure or any such nonsense but what kind of community you want to build.

Right now this isn't much of a community, there's like 3 people posting outside of the ban drama but that doesn't mean it can't grow into a community again. However that requires you to sell people on what this is supposed to become.

[ZombieGenesis]

@groth This is just my opinion and how I see things and I could be very wrong BUT, this is how I feel about things...This place stopped being a community a long time ago. It became a gathering place for a certain clique to share their thoughts and ideas and belittle anyone who disagreed with them. It's why my interaction with this forum dropped off to almost nothing years ago and I know it's why several other people have left. You agreed with and were in CliqueX or you were an outsider for the most part.

I do feel this forum needed a change and I think the direction people want to take it is a good one. Was it a rough start? But that's how some journeys start.

Will this lead to something good? Who knows but I don't think what has happened has destroyed the board. I think it destroyed the board for a certain sect of people and, in the end, that may not be a bad thing.

[Ghost]

@zombiegenesis I think that's an excellently worded summary, to be honest.

Even right now, the people who are still banned (some who are coming back to start trouble) are just gathering and saying nasty things about pretty much anyone who ever told them no or disagreed with them. It's super toxic and it's really not constructive to any sort of rationally comfortable environment that reasonable people would want to be a part of. It's just NOT OK.

I'd originally intended to hang back even if my ban was lifted, but seeing that an attempt is being made to course correct from "unmitigated personal attacks" to "trying to be more positive and foster an environment of respect"? I'm hanging around to see what's up. I'm glad to keep communicating with a vast number of you.

I think the major issue in the end is the concept of "reputational income" and what happens if you have a bad reputation being in this constant "eye of the beholder" state with some very disrespectful, very demanding, and very unfair people. You see a lot of posts from them with the "you need to change your behavior or else..." verbiage from them, and I recently likened it to someone like the mafia asking you "are you sure this is what you want?" after an extortion attempt.

Maybe people can just be regular people, right? With flaws, who make mistakes, who aren't perfect, and who don't need to live up to the demands and expectations of the same 15 or so blowhards with superiority complexes that demand everyone meet their standards or face ridicule/belittlement?

[Groth]

@zombiegenesis

I will agree that MSB has had a dogpiling problem for a long time, it's part of the reason the downvote button had to be removed (the other part of the reason was people going through other peoples history and downvoting every post they've ever made).

Dealing with that sort of thing would require a lot more pro-active community management then we've had so far.

[Ganymede]

@lordbelh

I have missed you here and elsewhere. We may not have agreed on everything, but I strongly respect what you have said here about making an effort to correct mistakes rather than doubling down on them.

[RightMeow]

I know my opinions hold no weight. I had a lot to say on this and really, I'm disappointed in the mods of this board.

I'm completely disappointed in the words posted here, in the decisions made, and the way it is coming down. I've respected everyone in this and I don't respect this. It is wrong.

It is not good.
It is NOT kind
It is not warranted.

Be better

[Derp]

@rightmeow said in Review of Recent Bans:

It is not good.
It is NOT kind
It is not warranted.

Alright. So what makes you say this? This is a serious question. Other than 'I like all the people that were banned and think they should not have been banned.'

You say it's not good. But the forum has been relatively peaceful since many of the loudest voices were removed, or moved on. We've seen many posters starting to come back since these decisions were made.

You say it's not kind. Well. Ok, maybe it's not. But were they kind in turn? Some of them flung some pretty harsh rhetoric at Ganymede. Many of them said some pretty unkind things about me. Does kindness only go one way? Should we not have expected it in return? Especially when one of the admins, over and over, asked people to stop because it was becoming emotionally damaging for one of the other admins? (Notably, not me.)

I'd say that the actions taken were perfectly warranted. Not only were they warranted, the persons to whom the actions were directed were given multiple warnings and told explicitly what would happen if they continued, and they pressed on anyway, behaving like serious jerks in a lot of cases.

Do you think that it was appropriate to allow the behavior to continue unchecked? Or that it's appropriate to allow people to continue breaking the rules unabated after an admin patiently asks multiple times for them to stop, and then gives them a final warning before actions are taken? Do you think that's a good way to run a forum, or shows a good example to other readers not currently engaging in that activity?

Because it seems to me that it was both good and warranted, and that whether or not it was kind isn't really totally relevant. But we're still discussing the situation. If you have feedback that you feel would be beneficial for us to consider, then by all means share.

[RightMeow]

@derp

1. I think your post is bait as you are very very very personally involved in all of this - however - I will take it.

2. I don't really agree with all the people that were banned. The same as I don't agree with all the ones that were never banned. None of you (or them) are in my RL - so I'm not going to say I like or dislike anyone. I don't think I have deep personal connections to anyone, mainly as I'm pretty private about those things as well. So even stating that my reasoning would be because 'I like them' is rather without any form of understanding. I do not believe (I could be wrong) that I have ever jumped on someone or just stuck up for someone 'just because' that was not needed.

3. The reasons that I think they shouldn't have been banned, and remember you asked, is because I think it makes those in the deciding force look like hypocrites. I'll expand -- first I'm not insulting you personally as I don't know you personally -- however, I have been in this community for years. I know that moderators here have made decisions/comments in the heat of the moment that did not go over well. They have been forgiven and sometimes embraced by that - but are unwilling to do the same? It's not a good look. I expected better, but that was my expectation, not an agreed upon thing.

4. Why should they be unbanned? Because they were reacting in the heat of the moment that happened over multiple days. They were reacting to something that they felt passionate about. Not everyone is clear thinking in those moments especially when they are being told to shut up and sit down when they are very impassioned about it. I'm not going to say they were right or wrong, but the actions taken to ban them were not the correct move. It could have gone down so much differently. We have admin on this board saying it was their fault and apologizing (not that I'm saying it was) but then that means they see there are two sides to this. I think both sides should be given the white flag in this to both come out of this with clearer heads and then see what happens moving forwards. If they choose to move in a horrible way after the bans are lifted --- well then that speaks on them NOT in a rather intense moment. It will speak to the community at that point too. I think they deserve a reset when you are asking for one. It's only fair. And I know life isn't fair, but when you are in a position to make it fair -- you try to make it fair.

5. This isn't peace. I know that I feel I am UNABLE to talk because you, Derp, will jump on me. Or Gany will decide to ban me. Or countless other reasons. You are not seeing peace, you are seeing fear. Which is perhaps what you wanted. I speak for myself, even if I've spoken to others, because my voice is the only one I can speak to. This peace you think you have is a community dying. I'm sad by this. I'm sad that you can't see through your objective to see it objectively. Seriously, I'm not angry. I'm sad. There have been people here that I've shared life things with, RP things with, and just shared. The silence is not peace. Look at who you have posting. You now have the minority and you don't see this and worse, you don't see the problem with it; you see it as a win. This isn't supposed to be Derp/Gany board - it is supposed to be the community board and you've effectively silence the community and don't see it.

6. Your statement on kindness? It shows your lack of empathy for it. You shouldn't be kind because in the heat of the moment they were not kind to you? Do you think that makes you a good admin? You are taking an example of one thing not an example of years of things, it's a very microscopic view and that hurts my heart in a different way. Kindness is not about holding a tally board of wrong doings and showing who hurt you more or who hurt you in general. Over the years? Most of these that have been banned have been overly supportive to those in the admin role. Did they react when they were already angry and told to stop? Yep. Same way as if I'm in a RL argument with you and you tell me I need to calm down, I'm probably not going to calm down. Was it kind to decide for the entire community who stays and goes between TWO people who were personally involved? I didn't see a poll go up. I was part of the community and not on either side, I wasn't asked. So what happened was that people said mean things to you and Gany in one moment on a topic that was a trashfire of a topic and then you decided who hurt your feelings the least could come back. That's not kind and that's not responsible admin.

7. I think both sides were wrong. I think how the entire topic and situation went down was wrong on both sides. Completely. I say this as one really trying to remain neutral to it. I shut up when I was told to shut up. I questioned meekly and respectfully. I waited for answers. They came and now I have opinions. This is one of mine. Are you going to ban those in this thread that have recently personally attacked people that were banned? That's against the rules right? Is that fair? Is that right? I think everyone should have stepped away. Which happened. We would leave games if the admin just started banning people for disagreeing. The game would die afterwards. We've all seen it happen. Maybe in this moment, they needed a ban to take a breath. Maybe. I don't think that was the right action, but the action was taken. Great. Now it's been a moment. They might not want to come back, but the fact that you can't show the empathy to them, that's not really right.

8. Also, I would like to point out that I'm a reader in this situation that is not involved. That I'm not engaged in that activity and I haven't engaged in that activity and you know, I'm okay with all the bans being lifted. Admin should not have made the decision without a third party that was unbiased to it. A million years ago when i was admin on a game - if it involved me - I did not make the decision. That's how this should have rolled out.

9. Of course, you are going to say you see it as good and warranted. You made the decision. You are bias to it. You are quick to say how the friends of the ban and their little party is, but I've been on this board for years. I've been pretty neutral for the most part, even when people were screaming at me or about me. Right now, it is coming off as the people that always come to your defense (not saying they shouldn't) are the same posting and upvoting. That's sort of a 'grouping' of it's own. It's now just that one on this forum. -- Now, that is my perception. That doesn't mean it's the God's honest truth, but you asked me for my opinion and why, so that's what I'm giving.

10. Constructive? I think (again my thoughts) it would be the fair thing to lift all the bans. Also, as a member of the community, I want to see the reasoning. I do not.. DO NOT.. like the cloak and dagger decisions that are going on. Even on games there is a level of transparency given to decisions. The reasoning of XYZ. That way the community can see and understand. That is not happening here and frankly that is a little concerning as well. Things should not be put in DM's. Decisions should not just be made by the two people that felt attacked in it. It is a bad perception. Again. Perception is not intention. If people are going to be banned, I want all their behaviors looked at and explained as this is why it was happening; not just one situation that got out of hand. I don't think it exists for most of them if you really honestly look at it -- or why were they not banned before that in the many, many years that some of them have been in the community?

In closing, I think this just needs to be done better. It doesn't make me right because I have a thought, but as a member of this community - I have a right to my opinion. I have a right to speak up when I've tried very hard to see all the sides for years. It doesn't mean it matters to you, or that you will change your mind and reflect on it. Frankly, I don't think you will. I think you will post another saying how my opinion is not a valid opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I just know that I'm very very sad about how this has gone down in a community I cared about and with people I enjoy interacting with (Banned and Unbanned). I don't know if I know the solution and even if I did if it's one admin want to take.

Just life is hard - try to be kind.

[Hella]

@rightmeow you have a right to your opinion and your experience and no one should ever tell you not to feel how you're feeling. I hope that, even if this site takes a different direction for those who remain, your heart can find healing in knowing you have two options to speak to the people you enjoyed speaking to and hopefully don't have to sacrifice any of the communication you enjoyed, and that this site specifically (it's the only one I can speak to) will welcome your kindness. I wish brighter days for you ahead. MSB will be better for it.

[Devrex]

@rightmeow Dude was kind. He was kindly and calmly continuing to help with technical issues while abuses and slanders were heaped on his head. He made a pro-choice statement but still got called misogynistic. As I can see the other board just fine I can see that the nastiness continues. Raw, cruel nastiness. Which. Cool. They have a spot for that now but equating “let’s stop the cyber bullying over here now” with what’s being said and has been said is an egregious false equivalency. And this whole group of folks once told me with straight faces they would gladly accept a ban from a game just so they could abuse Derp some more (yelling at him for a policy of asking for evidence of a violation prior to a banning on a MUSH while calling him a misogynist for that statement). But I guess that was said by them thinking they were all too righteous to ever worry about bans. So in my opinion? They should put their money where their mouth is. So please just stop lecturing the admin over here about how much nicer they need to be. Gamy got abuse too, and Mietze didn’t get the one thing she asked for because abusing her co-admin was way more important to folks than her mental health. They have been nice and kind and understanding and evaluative to the moon and back.

[hobos]

@devrex

I have to agree with that assessment, based on what I've seen here. There looks to have been a period where the admin were silencing posters just because they wanted people to be quiet while they deliberated. This wasn't respected, but that period is passed, and now people are saying they are afraid to talk, while the only limitations on what you can say are.... to at least try to be courteous while saying it. There's no need to be afraid to talk, @RightMeow.

I have examined my own feelings and I definitely feel like I can post more now that the main people who would bring up my past mistakes and mock me no matter what I said or how irrelevant it was are no longer posting here. Now I almost think I need to make a forum signature that says 'watch out I'm a terrible code-abusing person' because my posts don't always have sassy little replies that bring it up. Seriously I'm feeling a strange void and it makes me a little guilty.