Coming in 2016 - Bump in the Night

[Arkandel]

@Pyrephox If staff in any game is paralysed because people might complain and blow up for inane reasons nothing will ever happen. Drama will happen anyway eventually, at least this way everyone else gets to do things in the mean time.

Just let TJ deal with the fallout and do fun things! That's what he's getting paid the big bucks for.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel I think we disagree that it would be a "fun thing". I, for one, am really very excited for a mortals game. Where mortals are the focus. I don't think adding PC or former PC monsters is going to be fun. And it takes away from some of the fun things that I was looking forward to - namely a sense of mystery in the WoD, and the idea that more exists than Uratha and Kindred and whatever. Some really great, creative things about the setting and antagonists have been leaked. Why water that down with pale and uninteresting shadows of people's past PCs? What does that add to the game that wouldn't be better served by creating something new to explore?

Especially when it is inevitably going to lead to tantrums because either their NPC totally would have seen that coming and prepared for that and what do you mean he's going to be KILLED or their monster NPC had the best TS with this hot hunter guy, and now she's going to be reformed and hang around with the mortals as their buddy, and no, of course her sex buddy isn't going to kill her, instead he and his gang are all going to protect her and she's just the best thing ever and how dare you ruin RP by saying that can't happen.

[Arkandel]

@Pyrephox If you assume the very worst about players and are worried about trying new things out because of what someone might conceivably do or find an excuse to complain about then we do disagree on what a "fun thing" might be.

I like to experiment. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. It's okay, the world won't end, we're just playing games here.

[Ghost]

The reason I am so excited about Mortals-only (and wouldn't be a fan of Monster PCs or former Monster PCs) is because all too often on WoD, players/characters think/write from the point of view of expertise. Even if the vampire has been a vampire a total of a fortnight (high five to myself for fitting fortnight into a sentence today!), they tend to write from the point of view of a character who gets it, or at least has some heavy handle on this strange, paranormal world.

Mortals make for different stories. They make for all of the varied responses of discovery, or how they deal with these discoveries. It's "What would my quasi-fish of a Starbucks barrista do if encountered with a vengeful, fucked up ghost?" It will allow players to make people we might pass on the street or in a club, and apply our real-life models of society, responses, pop culture, and lack of knowledge towards dealing with things that aren't supposed to exist.

Well, when you're a vampire, this is all old fucking news. Having a job, being a barrista, giving a fuck about Arby's changing the flavor of Arby's sauce...all of that is useless, old news to vampires or monster PCs.

[Arkandel]

@Ghost said:

The reason I am so excited about Mortals-only (and wouldn't be a fan of Monster PCs or former Monster PCs)

Am I miscommunicating? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm just really confused here. I never proposed anything about using monsters as PCs. Or even using them as-is from their original versions. There are no vampires the way the WoD understands them in this game, after all.

The idea was simply to have some villains based on characters people have liked in the past, probably as a caricature or heavily distorted version at that. Not that different than running an NPC based on a movie or book one, but using our own past words for kicks and giggles.

I never suggested we pull a former character from TR and use them verbatim here, let alone play them as PCs. Why would we want that?

[Ghost]

@Arkandel Nope, you're not miscommunicating. I was just putting my 2¢ in on the idea.

[mietze]

Oddly, I think if there is any drama at all around that idea, should it be implemented, it won't be over NPCs being played /wrong/ so much as if the PCs don't pay enough attention to the individual and it becomes just like any other generic NPC (which it will to most PCs that aren't previously associated). A lot of WoD people in particular tend to get tetchy about "oldbies" and "new people" disparity in popularity/attention (or the perception). That can be hard enough to deal with with PCs, I wonder how adding that potential to NPCs too might work out. Or maybe it'd be totally fine.

I think you'd have to probably screen the players whose former PCs you used; if you did that and declined the offers of people kind of known for being a bit on the dramatic side, it might be fun. What I think I am hearing concerns wise is a mild concern that it might be a vector for the attention/story to be pulled from the mortal/PCs to focus on the familiar/beloved Monster (which is only going to be super fun for people in the know, probably). It's a little tweak to focus but it /could/ be significant. Dunno. Maybe it would not be though. I think it's valid and understandable to be raised as a concern though.

[skew]

Were we to run with this idea (taking someone's old, retired, etc PC and integrating them into the world as an NPC) it would be done on the stipulation that you're creating an NPC. If you're offering it up for staff to play, you're releasing that concept to staff. If you're running it yourself, you'd be doing so with some kind of plan that you created with staff.

Of course, none of what I just wrote is different than anything else. NPCs are NPCs. They are meant to play roles, and in a game based around hunting monsters, that role will often be getting killed. Anyone who writes up a monster for this game should expect the story they are writing to come to some sort of an end.

Likewise, any player that is creating powerful NPCs to use in their story will be working with staff anyways.

In conclusion, NPC antagonists will be NPC antagonists, and anyone that wants to play an NPC antagonist as their PC, they are silly.

[Coin]

Hell, if I brought any of my monster characters around for BITN I would hope they die in the most spectacular fashion.

[Ghost]

@Coin said:

Hell, if I brought any of my monster characters around for BITN I would hope they die in the most spectacular fashion.

Agreed. If this option were available I might be tempted to "give away" old characters/concepts for the GMs to cause trouble with and then eventually have them beheaded by some final girl.

At least I put some love into the concepts, you know? I'm never gonna play them again, so I may as well put them to good use.

[mietze]

Yes. I agree with those concepts, but while I do not assume the worse of other players, I do think it's not stupid to take a very clear eye as to potential, logical pitfalls based on past experience and to be aware and prepared for how to deal with it if it arises.

Years of reading in this community as well as direct game experience tells me that people being truly able to let go of pcs to npcs can be very problematic, even if they walked away/didn't even want those pcs anymore and later find out they were used in a way they didn't like.

While there would be a certain element of release in someone ceding their old PC to a game I do think that there are some potential focus issues that are worth looking at without assuming those concerned are spoilsports who don't want to try anything new.

I often recycle old pcs of mine into prps, but I don't think anyone would know because they are not named/meant to draw in old associations/stories. If that's all this is eh, don't most folks do that in part to flesh out personality/motivations/flavor *for the people they are storytelling for?
I think however "my pc's story will end here!" is a different thing that may imply more ownership and reaction. I don't think that be an invalid concern to keep on the back burner.

[Coin]

I just want to be able to grab, like, I don't know, Jack@Reno and bring him to BITN as a Big Bad for some plot I run.

And then when he's being lit the fuck on fire and beheaded, he can stumble around aflame with half his head off, yelling 'bout "oh, duckies, you're so violent" and singing Grease songs.

Because why the fuck wouldn't I want that sort of insane shit? That's my jam.

[tragedyjones]

Just to add, if someone's NPC is based on a PC from another game, the only real way for staff to know is to be told or to have had extensive personal knowledge of said PC. I am sure as shit not going to read through every log looking for possible influences in monster personality.

[surreality]

I would absolutely volunteer Zoe. Bitch was scary! And funny. I mean, 'socialite that turns into The Thing', possibly over something as random as a stain on her impeccable couture? Oh, all the yes. With my every blessing.

[tragedyjones]

@surreality said:

I would absolutely volunteer Zoe. Bitch was scary! And funny. I mean, 'socialite that turns into The Thing', possibly over something as random as a stain on her impeccable couture? Oh, all the yes. With my every blessing.

Socialite who turns into The Thing?

[Ghost]

Kurt Russell says...

...I tapped that.

[surreality]

@tragedyjones you make me so sad sometimes.

would be more apt. She finally got that devotion I always wanted...

Edit: "You ruined a brand new pair of Jimmy Choos and I'm the monster? Grrrrrrrrrar..."

[mietze]

Well, yes. As I said before many people bring in old pcs in concept, or elements, in plots. It's fun for the runner, you don't have to invent something wholesale that's frankly a bit part meant to be an avenue for the pcs to grow/rp/do things, ect.

The proposal was specifically for people to offer up their old PCs from elsewhere to be used as NPCs. That to me seems riskier in terms of heartstrings attached for some people. But it is a new idea! And one I have not seen. I think just about everyone recycles concepts and pcs they have played and met for /inspiration/. That isn't a new proposal and agreed, it can't be (nor should it be) policed by pcs or staff. There's a recent example here of what can happen when you think no one should ever make anything remotely similar to anything you might have done or else they are purposefully stalking/seeking to ruin your fun.

I just wonder if allowing PC "transfers" even if they are to temporary NPCs doesn't then shift the focus from the mortals to the old familiar monsters and ending their stories. Maybe that's okay? I'm neutral--but I do understand the concern.

[surreality]

I think if it sticks to things people volunteer to meet a grisly, less than glorious, or otherwise unhappy end, it should be fairly safe. The volunteer part I think would help weed out the overly attached, save for in those cases in which someone is all, "Wahhhhhh, I didn't get my way, so I am going to kill this char off horribly!" -- though, really, that type tends to be easy to spot.

[skew]

@mietze said:

I just wonder if allowing PC "transfers" even if they are to temporary NPCs doesn't then shift the focus from the mortals to the old familiar monsters and ending their stories. Maybe that's okay? I'm neutral--but I do understand the concern.

In BITN, we don't have the old familiar monsters. We don't have vampires, per V:TR or werewolves per W:TF. We have weird creatures that avoid the light and suck blood, and strange monsters that shape shift when the moon is right. The entire idea is to have new, fresh horrors, based more off lore and legend and pop culture. So, if a storyteller (player or staff) pulls from an existing concept, they'll be pulling a personality, or speech pattern, or vague ideas. You won't be able to remake the exact same thing.

That said, as some guy mentioned, he's thinking of a Big Bad. Those are things we would want to limit. And you're absolutely right that if we run with this concept too often, it will shift the focus at best, and get entirely played out and obnoxious at worst. So, I am be fairly sure we won't see many familiar faces from alternate realities.

(Of course, all the above doesn't include characters who are re-imagining their past PCs as new PCs, that fit into BITN and the world we've created.)