The Shame Game

Lithium

@Lithium Not being practiced at something, or choosing not to do it != incapable of using reason.

I prefer to think of them as incapable of using it rather than being so silly as to choose not to use it.

@Ganymede I never said I didn't value your opinion. You're quite in error there I value your opinion greatly.

I am just saying that opinions in and of themselves have only as much value as an individual places on it.

Different things make an opinion valuable to different people and the only thing we can say, is what makes an opinion valuable to /us/. We don't get to speak for other people. That is self-righteousness on an epic scale, the kind of thing that suggests they know better than anyone else what is best for everyone else.

It's the same kind of thinking that allows for some very dark pieces of humanity.

@Thenomain I find boiling everything down to opinion to be dangerous as well. I'm not talking about doing so but using examples where people are taking facts, and citing them as opinions.

ie. Rush Limbaugh's opinions do not matter, at all, to me. They have zero value. Another given person might value his opinion greatly. So who is right, who is wrong? Does that opinion have any value truly?

Not to me. That's all I can say.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all smell about the same.

Thenomain

@Lithium

What conditions are we putting on the word "value"? Without that information, I can neither agree nor disagree with you, not even regarding Rush Limbaugh.

Also, it doesn't matter if I don't value his opinion when I'm dealing with people who do, or when dealing with something he has influence over. Under these circumstances, my opinion isn't as powerful. To live in this world I have to recognize--accepting or no--that there are people who do. That is, opinion is more than a matter of opinion.

It's not that I disagree with your opinion, it's that I am not finding the merit in it. You're clearly trying to sway opinion, but I find much more merit in reading opinions as a more complicated thing, something with weight and context. I am unconvinced.

Lithium

@Thenomain I'm more just responding to people who are or were trying to sway me to their opinion.

Natural discourse, debate, that sort of thing.

I have no emotional attachment to this other than trying to explain what I mean but I am apparently not very good at it around these parts.

Thenomain

@Lithium

Except many of them aren't stating opinions, they're stating accepted truths. I can't call them facts because of my science brain says that's the wrong word, but let's stick with "accepted truths".

The debunking of accepted truths in how humanity, societies, and people work is a huge bumfuck issue in this Rush Limbaugh world. Andy Warhol understood. CNN understands. It's terrible and depressing.

Speaking of, back to work.

Lithium

@Thenomain I must have missed the 'accepted truths' part because what I read, was people explaining what made an opinion have value... to /them/.

Which is fine.

Just looking at things differently.

Ganymede

@Lithium said in The Shame Game:

I am just saying that opinions in and of themselves have only as much value as an individual places on it.

I didn't really get to this conclusion from what you wrote, but I concur.

Different things make an opinion valuable to different people and the only thing we can say, is what makes an opinion valuable to /us/.

Nor did I get to this conclusion from what you wrote, with which I disagree vehemently.

That is self-righteousness on an epic scale, the kind of thing that suggests they know better than anyone else what is best for everyone else.

And I don't think that this is the logical conclusion from pointing out what should have weight upon consideration.

It's not self-righteous for me to point out that you should probably consider a certified appraiser's opinion of your property value over that of a police officer that has seen it once, never seen comparable properties, and never undertaken a rental-value analysis. Some would call this "common sense."

Flat-earthers. Birthers. Anti-vaxxers. They all adhere to opinions that have been repeatedly shown to be contrary to science, law, and ethics. If you're suggesting that I should consider their opinions equal in weight to scientists, lawyers, and ethicists, I cannot agree with you.

Rush Limbaugh's opinions do not matter to you, and they should not matter to others. The last bit is an opinion, but it is one that I will bet you can and would defend.

I am not content in letting people wallow in ignorance. That may make me self-righteous, but I'd like to stand for something.

(Edit to add: I don't mean to suggest, @Lithium, that you are ignorant. Far from it. But there are others who are; very much so.)

silentsophia

@Ganymede And some of them cause very real harm. Thanks to anti-vaxxers, we now have whooping cough, measles and several other childhood diseases we used to never see happen. Hooray outbreaks! All natural, 100% mother earth approved.

Of course, it's usually poor kids who die. But better to kill or cripple someone else's kid or your own kid than risk some imaginary side effect (Guess it's better to be dead than ~autistic~) made up by an asshole who faked a study and his medical license.

So ignorance can be incredibly dangerous.

Lithium

@Ganymede @silentsophia

You are both correct, in fact I happen to share those opinions.

I personally put a lot of faith in various things /but/ that is /me/. That is /you/.

Clearly other people do /not/ put that same faith into those same values.

All our opinions mean, is what is right for us. Everything else is trying to adjust the social norm and create social change which requires changing a lot of opinions. It's definitely not easy but this brings us back full circle:

I do not experience shame for my opinions. Those who /do/ however, must believe their opinions are somehow flawed. Those who do /not/ however, shame will do nothing because they don't experience it.

silentsophia

@Lithium Yeah. It's not like those ignorant people vote, or spread diseases or anything. Or convert people who might've gotten vaccines or education away from it.

WTFE

Be silent, Sophia. You're never supposed to bring up "reality" and "consequences" when people wish to live in solipsistic words where only their "opinion" matters.

Arkandel

@Lithium The difference is some things aren't opinion-based - they aren't subjective. For example herd immunity isn't subject to well, we can agree to disagree. And it's not like someone is choosing to harm themselves in the privacy of their own home which at worst might raise health insurance rates, but something which harms society as a whole.

Tyche

@silentsophia said in The Shame Game:

@Ganymede And some of them cause very real harm. Thanks to anti-vaxxers, we now have whooping cough, measles and several other childhood diseases we used to never see happen. Hooray outbreaks! All natural, 100% mother earth approved.

Of course, it's usually poor kids who die. But better to kill or cripple someone else's kid or your own kid than risk some imaginary side effect (Guess it's better to be dead than ~autistic~) made up by an asshole who faked a study and his medical license.

So ignorance can be incredibly dangerous.

“I am committed to make investments to find the causes of autism, including possible environmental causes like vaccines.” - Hillary Clinton

“We’ve seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it’s connected to the vaccines. This person included. The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it.” - Barrack Obama

I wouldn't be too hard on them. Bad science is not confined to "anti-vaxxxers". We've also been hit by the largest wave of immigration since the early 20th century, and a disproportionate number of cases involve them.

Tyche

@Ganymede said in The Shame Game:

Rush Limbaugh's opinions do not matter to you, and they should not matter to others. The last bit is an opinion, but it is one that I will bet you can and would defend.

It's my opinion that everyone should listen to Rush. He's a lovable little fuzzball.

Arkandel

@Tyche I am not suggesting we should listen to any particular party's politicians more than to politicians from other parties.

I am suggesting we should listen to the scientists who are studying the matter based on, well, science.

silentsophia

@Arkandel SCIENCE IS FOR COMMIES, YOU GODLESS HEATHEN. NOW SHUT UP AND EAT YOUR NON-GMO GRASS.

Never mind that people with Autism either lucked out and were high functioning enough to do well at some job or another, or they got locked in an asylum/the attic/quietly escorted into the forest instead of diagnosed and helped. Autism is a complex blend of genetic and environmental factors as far as we can tell with the frustrating fact that most non-verbal kids can't TELL you what's happening and that so many neurological issues share similar symptoms (see also: flu-like symptoms and every diagnosis freaking ever).

Warma Sheen

@Tyche said in The Shame Game:

I wouldn't be too hard on them. Bad science is not confined to "anti-vaxxxers". We've also been hit by the largest wave of immigration since the early 20th century, and a disproportionate number of cases involve them.

Problem found. Emigrating causes autism. Alert Trump.

Tennyson

@Pandora said in The Shame Game:

My conclusion really is that MSB doesn't really care if you reform your wicked ways, it just kind of wants you to shut up unless you agree with its many talking heads, because dissenting opinions are bad and shameful, k?

Oh good god. This. See, I come from a world where dissenting opinion isn't a bad thing as long as you can articulate how you came to the view you hold. It may not be a view I agree with but if you can give me rationale, maybe back it up with some citations, then hey, it's your opinion and we can agree to disagree. That's it. But holy crap if you disagree with someone on a mu? Heaven forbid they're a staffer? YOU ARE EVIL! You're a shit stirrer. You have a bad attitude mister!

To which my opinion is generally, meh. Whatever.

Which people have equated to calling me an asshole or rude or what have you.

Sorry guys, the thing that makes this country great is the fact that the guy next to you, even if he's a total tool, has a right to be a total tool. If he's not hurting anyone, leave him be. And if he is? Meh, we have laws to deal with that. But that's a totally separate problem entirely.

So. Shame. Does it work? Not really. It's a weak effort at best because it tries to turn public opinion against a viewpoint that could very well be valid with no rationale other than we disagree. Some people might even call this bullying. People have committed suicide over it. Yeah fun right?

My preferred method? Discussion. Argument. Discourse. But that requires thought and exposition and it's easier just to tell someone they're being rude.

Which brings me back to... meh.

I used to get worked up over it. Now? I'm too tired to meh.

Just my two cents. Feel free to downvote.

Meh.

Lithium

@Tennyson Only thing downvote worthy in that, is the assumption that all countries have the same rights as others.

Tennyson

@Lithium said in The Shame Game:

@Tennyson Only thing downvote worthy in that, is the assumption that all countries have the same rights as others.

Oi. Tooootally separate discussion. But yet another reason why Americans behave like overpriveleged children. They don't understand just how good they have it when compared to a large portion of the world.

Ghost

@Tennyson said in The Shame Game:

@Lithium said in The Shame Game:

@Tennyson Only thing downvote worthy in that, is the assumption that all countries have the same rights as others.

Oi. Tooootally separate discussion. But yet another reason why Americans behave like overpriveleged children. They don't understand just how good they have it when compared to a large portion of the world.

I think it's sad that Canadians and the English and the Germans and the French and the Swiss and the Swedish and the Australians and the Luxembourgish don't have freedom.

They, like, must be reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally jealous of America having it written on a piece of paper that we're allowed to talk, because those dudes are clearly not allowed to speak.

Edit: Found and shared a gif, because in Wales, they get put in jail if they gif and I wanted to show off how great it is to be free.