Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff

[Lotherio]

@lordbelh said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

@Lotherio If you want everybody to be tolerant, why the hell have two separate religions in the first place? Part of the tension of that period of time, in that place, was the fear that one side was on the brink of being utterly wiped out, that god was forsaking them, etc, etc. If you take the religion out of the equation, there's actually nothing particularly special about your setting.

The tension at the time is being gorged by taxes and wanting freedom to control your own resources. Same thing we argue in politics now, same thing Crispus Attucks took the first bullet for, freedom. Any painting on what Crispus did about religions freedoms and beyond is done by historians, but the colonies wanted economic freedoms and their autonomy to be true autonomy.

Saying Asturias rose because of religion and religious tension is about the same as saying the American Revolution is about religious tension cause some folks wanted religion freedom. Did religious differences abound at the time, certainly, but between those fighting for American Freedom, not as a result of the King of England wanting to bank off the colonies. I personally see more religious difference in early America between settlers and moving to other areas to have those freedoms rather than wanting to fend off the people collecting the taxes in the end because the other side practiced a different religion.

We are not saying there is no intolerance, we are saying there is no interest in the worst of the worst. There is a difference.

Edit on history:

Much as @bored has pointed out, pedantics will come up between folks insisting on actual history (subjective to their favorite historians take, and they debate these things themselves) and those wanting Hollywood version. Religious pedantics will just crop up because some people just have to go there and can't just play nice.

I can only suggest folks actually take a look at this time period. The Reconqiusta is 700+ years of Spain and Portugal taking shape, carved as it is by Romans, early other conquering forces (Goths/Visigoths). The religious bend doesn't really become a thing until 9th century (just in reference) and more prominent later in the developments in the area, probably in conjunction with the cruscades and just as likely a propaganda tool to paint 'differences' and others as 'in human' or different.

Wikipedia, like it or lump it, is probably closest to the neutral view of history. Versus suggesting the conquest and the early 'reconquest' were huge religious undertakings or heavily influenced by religions at all; or the opposite, that it was all peace between the various groups (evidence suggests they lived in the towns together, but no different than any country, US included, where ethnic groups tend to have their own neighborhoods).

The write up under Kingdom of Asutias and the write up under the Umayyad Conquest of Hispania (check the invasion and the administration section here).

Everything thing else suggestion religious intolerance and that this was a time of religious debacle and debate has been other users suggesting it based on the works of a historian or two (not the entirety of works of numerous historians). It is history, like it or lump it, just the neutral ground points more to politics, alliances and other divisions that do not equate to 'we are Christians, we most remove Muslims' or 'we are Muslims, we most conquer them because they are Christians'.

[Lotherio]

@WTFE said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

@Lotherio said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

@WTFE said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

Harping again on my favourite hobby horse: how, precisely, with details, do you plan to reward those who play other lines of conflict than the religious ones? Talks of banning X and forbidding Y are counter-productive. Punishment is a terrible motivator. What do you plan to do to reward those who keep to the theme you want to establish? Show your work.

Aside from XP ,,, the ones making the effort to play the game, the ones politicking, the ones making alliances, the ones conflicting over the resources will make gains by affecting the direction of the story and meta. They will shape the story of the mush itself. They will contribute to its growth and direction.

You really, really, really, really, really need to read my little rant on this topic. What you are proposing as "rewards" is setting yourself up for disappointment and failure. Motivational psychology: not just a pair of polysyllabic words.

You make a good point, and I see most of what I said as soft wins and kudos more than something tangible. Aside from XP, nothing is tangible. Your motivational psychology, would you recommend doing away with the in game potential gains (just fluff in the end), for a kudos system. I've seen games that ditched XP all together, and used Kudos. Awarded by staff for good scenes, +voted by players (a couple to distribute a week), as an psychological reward only. Most times people ignore kudos systems.

[WTFE]

I have never figured out what motivates MU*ers (beyond sheer bloody-mindedness, I mean). I think, however, part of the problem in motivating MU*ers is the same thing that demotivates employees so often: a lack of immediacy. We are hardwired to seek IMMEDIATE reward. Most of the +vote systems (and other such things) I've seen in games defer rewards to points in time convenient to the staff. The result is a psychological disconnection from the act(s) that generated the rewards and the actual rewards. This is at best suboptimal and at worst can be counterproductive (because the human brain is bloody-minded).

[Lotherio]

Just a quick summary after a flurry of responses.

All great suggestions, but most of what I'm seeing is, that looks wrong. I am seeing no true offer of a possible solution that is better, other than change theme. On changing time period, honestly, history, alt-history, alt-earth, the religion thing is going to happen. Its happened for years in this hobby. Its actually been at a lull lately, but it is there, it still shows up sporadically on pub channel and someone usually has to point out what is inappropriate to whoever is saying it. It happens on places that have nothing to do with religion. I believe more pub channels at present are lighter than they have been because most sensible people that know trolls troll them gag the pub, or ignore it mostly in favor of RP. And it has been a slow decline, early to mid 90s, I don't remember many days of getting on when someone had to be warned or told to stop trolling for debate, or instigating hurt feeling just to be funny. I'm glad most places don't see this regularly contemporarily, it could be that we as a whole are more sensitive to what we're saying, but they still crop up from time to time.

The two topics to avoid OOCly and on chan, religion and politics. They're still not eradicated from rearing their heads though and I am fairly certain most of us have seen these crop up on channels or the dreaded OOCly which seems to be where most of the trolls have gone, off pub, into ooc lounges.

[Lotherio]

@WTFE said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

I have never figured out what motivates MU*ers (beyond sheer bloody-mindedness, I mean). I think, however, part of the problem in motivating MU*ers is the same thing that demotivates employees so often: a lack of immediacy. We are hardwired to seek IMMEDIATE reward. Most of the +vote systems (and other such things) I've seen in games defer rewards to points in time convenient to the staff. The result is a psychological disconnection from the act(s) that generated the rewards and the actual rewards. This is at best suboptimal and at worst can be counterproductive (because the human brain is bloody-minded).

True, and on systems that allow immediate rewards, +kudos and the player sees immediately one someone sends it. After some time, people seem to forget to do it, or devalue it as just being overdone. I think its a hard balance, but I am interested in an honest motivator that works beyond drive to achieve some fluff goal, like a title, an alliance, a friendship, a gain of any sort (ie, we are hungry, Farmor Maggot has mushrooms, we have an adventure (he finds us, chases us to the stream, we hide in the hallow), reward, we get to be lazy and eat mushrooms). The later is just fine for me, I can do these all day long, and this is one of the things I believe in: allowing players access and understanding of what they can do in PrPs without having to ask staff for approval or coordinate events or plan ahead of time. Opening doors, removing blockades, to have fun.

[lordbelh]

@Lotherio History is full of examples of occupation and conquest. You're specifically picking a time and place in history in which religion is at the very forefront. Well, I suppose since you've gone to the alt-world version, it is more accurate to say you setting is inspired by it. Anyway, the point is, why pick this obscure place if you're not going to embrace the things that makes it stand out?

If you're gonna bland things, you might as well bland up something more familiar. Like Norman occupations, or whatever.

[Lotherio]

@lordbelh said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

@Lotherio History is full of examples of occupation and conquest. You're specifically picking a time and place in history in which religion is at the very forefront. Well, I suppose since you've gone to the alt-world version, it is more accurate to say you setting is inspired by it. Anyway, the point is, why pick this obscure place if you're not going to embrace the things that makes it stand out?

If you're gonna bland things, you might as well bland up something more familiar. Like Norman occupations, or whatever.

No, Religion is not at the forefront of this time period. Evidence points to tolerance between faith, evidence suggest entities of the period where just as likely to ally across faith to gain what they were after, evidence suggest that making it religious doesn't truly start for centuries and probably as propaganda.

Quick edit: Heck, there is some evidence to suggest that the Christian locals/commoners took to quick support of the Muslims for freedoms and to be free of the yoke of the Visigoths, as they were viewed as invaders/conquestors just the same.

[Kanye Qwest]

This is hilarious to watch, by the way. Can't even decide on an alt-history period without the exhaustive history arguments.

I propose a game be opened where the purported purpose of the game is to settle on a theme and setting for a historical MU*. It would never die.

[Lotherio]

@Kanye-Qwest said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

This is hilarious to watch, by the way. Can't even decide on an alt-history period without the exhaustive history arguments.

I propose a game be opened where the purported purpose of the game is to settle on a theme and setting for a historical MU*. It would never die.

Sort of feel like it supports the very discussion in the last historical mu thread?

Its history, lots of people have stake in in, its a shared history, lots of opinions on it, more so than original theme. But if it was pure fantasy or original theme, less interest as only those willing to read the hundred wiki pages on the theme will play it out. Hard to say, lets just meet in the middle and call it square it seems.

[Lithium]

Doing a 'historical' game based only on information one can get from Wikipedia is... not a good idea imho.

[Lotherio]

@Lithium said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

Doing a 'historical' game based only on information one can get from Wikipedia is... not a good idea imho.

Basing it on opinionated historians, when one can find historians that support the extreme opposites as well, is just as not good of an idea either. Are we concluding historical mu*'s are just not a good idea?

[Lithium]

@Lotherio Personally?

Yes.

I believe a game will be stronger if it takes elements from history but doesn't try to pretend to be any kind of historical accurate game.

There is a difference between theme elements and setting.

You can take elements from a historical setting and implant that into your theme and use that as a basis for parts of the game and stories you want to tell, but trying to make a 'historical' game is basically shooting yourself in the foot. People are going to have different ideas of the historical culture chosen, people are going to have strong opinions, and it is inviting a huge mess.

So take the elements you like about that historical period, do some creative writing, dress it up in a fictional place with a fictional history that people can read about and get behind.

Will it take more work? Perhaps, perhaps not, because as a Historical game you are already half educating people on the differences of your game and the real world or at least what common 'History' represents.

All of this is just my opinion of course, with what value that is worth.

I do think that attempting to do anything, right now, that involves real world religions is doomed to failure just due to how dramariffic that would be.

Two of the three things I disallow entirely in my games is discussion of Religion and Politics, because it just breeds disagreements (To put it very mildly).

[Cadi]

Nah, it can definitely be done I think. However, it works better for eras where there is a lot of visual/written information (movies, shows, books, cartoons, comics, whichever.) And with a culture that people are partially aware of without needing to research much. It also helps to have clear ideas of how every day life was lived back then.

Like I can imagine Ancient Rome would be simple; point to a few sources (Rome, Spartacus (movies and TV series), The Gladiator, Centurion, Marcus Didius Falcus Mysteries, etc.) tell them roughly who the big players are and voila, you're pretty good to go. Maybe the only thing you need is a guideline for the cast system and how house holds of various wealth are run, various careers and how status works.

If you listen to most of the post, the argument isn't with the fact that it's a history MU*, its with the which era you've picked. Its a contentious era, not very well known except for real history buffs who like Spanish or Moor history, during a time not many are interested in (although to Middle Easterners we love this era due to it being the big expansion of Islam and Arab culture.)

[Lotherio]

@Lithium I respect your opinion, and it has a high value. I've done plenty of fantasy based on real world in Mu*s, helped form/make/contribute to a few along the way. I'm just looking more at history as I'm over the expectance of magic in any fantasy setting. I don't know, just me. Fantasy based on real world anything is just seeming more and more bland. Some folks realize the reference and try to go that way (oh hey, the Northmen of the Trinitate Church are like Crusaders and the extra long named Dynasty of the south is so close to Caliphates and Muslim Dynasties ... I'm going to recreate plot based on something that happened in the real world based on this new knowledge). Others miss the mark and play what they want regardless of theme (people misreprestining ethnic cultures/religions isn't specific to history, just it is more recognizably offensive I believe).

@Cadi said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

Nah, it can definitely be done I think. However, it works better for eras where there is a lot of visual/written information (movies, shows, books, cartoons, comics, whichever.) And with a culture that people are partially aware of without needing to research much. It also helps to have clear ideas of how every day life was lived back then.

This I agree with. Only feeling regularly recognizable stuff is a bit overdone to me is all.

If you listen to most of the post, the argument isn't with the fact that it's a history MU*, its with the which era you've picked. Its a contentious era, not very well known except for real history buffs who like Spanish or Moor history, during a time not many are interested in (although to Middle Easterners we love this era due to it being the big expansion of Islam and Arab culture.)

This I strongly agree with, I am interested in the culture due to the expansion, the broadening of knowledge that spreads from this expansion and the look by historians that the expansion comes with tolerance and acceptance of the cultures and ethnic groups where these dynasties expand. Literally its a continuation of many cultures of the region from before this, from the Khanate system and those administrations that came after it. Including Alexander the Great borrowing from those models for his expansion. The conquered were not subjugated so much as included and indoctrinated into the system, allowing them to continue with a way of life they already new and even encouraging some to join with them. This is a very strong interest of mine.

[Lyanna]

I have very fond memories of my own one experience on a somewhat historical MUSH. Agreed, the place was rather small, and per invitation only. But it got me to read up on a whole lot of material about the crusades. (It was set in Jerusalem at the end of the 12th century). It also had the distinction of historical and fictional characters, and I ended up with one historical and two fictional alts. I had great fun there. Perhaps there was no drama because the place was so small?

That said, I'd be interested to play on this game.

As much as I like fictional settings. Even fantasy settings invite discussions about theme. It -always- depends on the staffers and the players in particular.

Meaning, avoiding a historical setting won't keep you from the drama.

[Lithium]

@Lyanna said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

As much as I like fictional settings. Even fantasy settings invite discussions about theme. It -always- depends on the staffers and the players in particular.

Meaning, avoiding a historical setting won't keep you from the drama.

It may be impossible to stop all drama, but you can make an effort to limit it, not embrace themes/topics that will make it explode imho.

[Thenomain]

@WTFE said in Historical Mu* - Looking for interested Staff:

I have never figured out what motivates MU*ers (beyond sheer bloody-mindedness, I mean).

Sure you have. It's a question like saying, "I don't know what motivates hackers." Are we talking white-hats? Gray-hats? Security professionals? Script kiddies? Reporters who probably should've reported to the proper authorities before saying 'look at this list of personal information that I easily hacked'?

I think most people who RP do it for a combination of "power fantasy", "wallowing in the setting/theme", and "love of the game system". There is no easy grid of breaking down one over the other, than the well researched rule-of thumb that is Bartle's Taxonomy, though I think you need to look beyond Bartle when you're looking at role-player types, as his study was for Mud/MMO games.

I don't disagree with the bulk of your assessment of the human mentality, but I wanted to interject this tangent.

[Lotherio]

Thinking over the suggestion put forth by @Autumn about avoiding overuse of the word Reconquista (as technically, the Reconquista is backdated to Pelayo/Pelagius in later centuries), and doing minor changes to the concept.

Instead of doing something like just calling it Reconquista, it would be named Rotensian Chronicles (a referenced chronicle from Alfonso III, a 9th century king of Asturias) and there would be more to point out the neighbors and necessity for politics and alliances. Including highlighting the Cantabri, Vascones and Galicians. All who do the same and the north becomes a muddle of various kingdoms/states over the next century or two.

Same time period, same focus; nobles of the Astures and whether they ally with neighbors to secure freedom from the jizya taxation or work with neighbors to side with the Caliphate or carve out something else entirely different as its a deviation from the timeline dependent on player choices and actions. All choices still leaving the nobles open for autonomous control of their lands. Its more on the struggle of who rises to power and how (which has always been implied, a shift in terminology is the only difference).

[tek]

@Lotherio If you want to avoid a lot of the religious tension while still maintaining historicity, why not focus on the Convivencia and set it in Toledo or Granada?

[Lithium]

I'd love to see a Port Royal or Tortuga pirate historical game