Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs

[Roz]

@Ghost said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Roz said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Arkandel said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Nein said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Roz I probably run in different mu subcultures, because I've rarely heard of PvP causing drama.

What?

That was my first response, too.

I think he has a point: I would equate drama surrounding PvP as rare due to the absolute rarity of players risking their character's lives to series of dice rolls. The last time I heard of a PvP death was on Fallcoast, and even then, I heard 4-5 staffers say things like "holy shit, a PvP death???"

So, yeah, unethical staff and IC fuckery channels far more drama than PVP, IMO.

My statement in no way argued that unethical staff doesn't cause drama. Also, PvP is more than just PvP death. PvP brings with it an intrinsically higher level of IC fuckery because players are literally being pitted into competition with each other.

[Nein]

As a secondary thought, I come from the school of MU*s in which staff leading PvE plots and players not being allowed PvP was actively rebelled against because it was seen as interference and authoritarian control on the part of staff. Players were expected to (and did) become RP self-starters, and things developed naturally. Sure, you'd get the occasional awful Batman or Magneto but because the characters were not forced into anything, factionally or plot-wise, you could 'starve the cancer' to death by not feeding terrible characters and players interaction or attention. Someone else could naturally rise from the ranks and take care of the plot, and the system was more meritocratic. Good players became IC leaders and energized others. It was not uncommon on some games I played late 90's to early 00's for people playing a Sephiroth or a Dr. Doom to actually step down and turn over their charbit to someone better as a sign of respect, because then everyone's fun increased.

Those days are probably just long dead, as there were so many more people playing on MU*s at that point. The effect of toxic players were diluted by sheer numbers.

I have been on some PvE only games and in general, since the staff are usually busy only roleplaying with each other or their select chose friends, I have been bored to fcking tears*. It's like being smothered to death by a group of kindergarten girls playing tea party / house while waiting to see what randomly generated boss monster of the week shows up.

[Ghost]

@Roz AAAAAAAhhh I getcha. I was thinking PvP as in characters waving consent and rolling dice to try to permaKill the other player; I wasn't think PvP in the more holistic sense of players competing ICly, not necessarily including combat.

Using the latter definition, then fuck yeah PvP causes a smorgasbord of issues.

[Arkandel]

@Roz said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

My statement in no way argued that unethical staff doesn't cause drama. Also, PvP is more than just PvP death. PvP brings with it an intrinsically higher level of IC fuckery because players are literally being pitted into competition with each other.

Yes, basically this. The vast majority of PvP-related drama is anticipation (whether true or, quite commonly, false) of the act rather than its fallout.

People just don't want to lose and they respond to their IC enemies with OOC disdain, forming camps and demonizing each other. Whether they ever actually clash is nearly irrelevant once the toxicity settles.

[Misadventure]

OMG its (American) super heroes! Character growth and themes are explored by punching things.

Get on with it!

Sheesh.

[Nein]

OH. Rolled stat Dungeons and Dragons PvP where you die - yeah, that always causes issues.

It took me years before I was on a game that had actual stats. PvP was just writing out, round-robin style, face punching and daring-last-minute-rescuing. Characters embroiled in mental, ideological, IC political and physical competition. Which is tremendously fun.

[Roz]

@Ghost said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Roz AAAAAAAhhh I getcha. I was thinking PvP as in characters waving consent and rolling dice to try to permaKill the other player; I wasn't think PvP in the more holistic sense of players competing ICly, not necessarily including combat.

Using the latter definition, then fuck yeah PvP causes a smorgasbord of issues.

Yeah. PvP crops up pretty much any time you have player factions working in opposition to each other, because, as @Arkandel said, players don't want to lose. (This does crop up in PvE games, because there's always conflict and conflict is interesting, but certainly not at the same rates as it does on PvP games.)

It's also true that PvE games require a lot more staff time and energy. If they don't have enough of either, the game's going to stagnate. (Or just devolve into PvP anyways.)

[Nein]

@Roz An ancient and wise RP sensei of mine once said, 'The harder it is to apply for and get a character, the harder it should be for them to be ICly killed off.'

[Ghost]

@Misadventure said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

OMG its (American) super heroes! Character growth and themes are explored by punching things.

In the bathing suit region.
With a penis.

Honestly, I think the @saosmash @Roz @Meg @Tez crew might actually run the best superhero games. There's a lot of depth of character and it isn't nearly the mostly vacant, private room bangfests that I'm used to seeing.

[Nein]

This has answered my questions for the most part, so thanks to everyone that replied.

I've been on a non-superhero game run by Roz, Tez, etc, though I think Roz retired from it, so staff competency may vary. It was unpleasant and dull. I had at least two people trying to force unwanted relationships on me (no means maybe, apparently) and then watched half the playerbase ostracize a player for being male in RL.

I'm betting Roz's superhero game is probably much, much better. Players are usually not a reliable indicator of staff quality.

[Roz]

@Nein said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

This has answered my questions for the most part, so thanks to everyone that replied.

I've been on a non-superhero game run by Roz, Tez, etc, though I think Roz retired from it, so staff competency may vary. It was unpleasant and dull. I had at least two people trying to force unwanted relationships on me (no means maybe, apparently) and then watched half the playerbase ostracize a player for being male in RL.

I'm betting Roz's superhero game is probably much, much better. Players are usually not a reliable indicator of staff quality.

OH HILARIOUS I almost forgot who you were. I need to make a mental note somewhere.

[Arkandel]

@Roz said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

OH HILARIOUS I almost forgot who you were. I need to make a mental note somewhere.

I would love it if MSB let us keep notes on people's profiles. Or if we could list our alt history somehow so others can mouseover our avatar and figure out who we are.

Sure, there are the 'playlist' threads but those aren't easy to just use as a reference on the fly.

[saosmash]

I think I'm pretty out of the superhero business atm.

But even when I ran them-- I wasn't super into villain PCs. I hate PVP. We tried running a game with opposing factions and eh. The effort involved in keeping things active without people being OOC dicks is just too much. In my experience even players who like each other can get tangled in PVP shit, and honestly, one of the worst things is like ... people paralyzed in confusion trying to figure out how bad they can be / how much they can react / what to do next. It's just not fun.

PVE is way preferable to me, but of course, it also requires a lot of staff energy and attention to foster.

[fatefan]

Part of it definitely seems to be people hating to lose, so having open-ended villain PCs (without clear plot lines they're running) means those PCs are going to idle or engage primarily in social RP.

Of course, the few places that required clear plots before approval for villain PCs, many of the hero PCs were too engaged in their own social RP, or were unwilling to even temporarily take a loss as part of the "Act I" or "Act II" buildup to a greater and longer-term success in Act III or V, to engage in the villains' plots.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Roz said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Arkandel said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Nein said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Roz I probably run in different mu subcultures, because I've rarely heard of PvP causing drama.

What?

That was my first response, too.

My first response was a giggle then thinking well he has never WoDed.
To the topic at hand I think a lot of it is based on expectations, as someone who played a secondary hero in most of my superhero mushing I have learned to tend to avoid PC villains because 9 times out of 10 they would ask for RP. I'd say sure, they would be like cool so here's my idea on how my PC beat up yours, so that when Star Hero PC takes me down it is more dramatic. While I admit that is a common (read very over used) comic trope it is not one that makes for run RP on my end.
I have no problem losing the first encounter but there has to be a plan for me to get some IC get back or it is a non-starter, especially since virtually every Comic based game is consent based.

[Misadventure]

We need a wiki.

So we can link <person involved> to <topic> to <argument>.

Save time. Maybe make ideograms.

[bored]

The only superhero game I played recently allowed villains and they were fairly widely played (I was Deathstroke, Zod was around, etc). But then again it was also a game run by a crazy person that imploded pretty hilariously.

I found that playing a villain was kind of hard, though, as comic books treat villains in a way that can be tricky to get people to go along with on a MU; ie, generally even the most ridiculous villains with the lamest powers get amped up 1000% so they can beat up the heroes (often taking on many at once) and be a threat for a while, but of course are ultimately defeated (but still escape to fight another day, or get locked up and immediately break out, etc). It's a hard push-pull to get people to accept when PvP instincts kick in.

[Wretched]

@Arkandel said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

Why I would have it like that? It's because I wouldn't want to see the Red Skull doing random bar scenes or hanging out with random people just because I have the character, I'm bored, and I want to play him. Overuse breeds familiarity and the character becomes less menacing if you've met him fifty times, or a joke if that's 50 times you had to listen through his racist bite-less tirades.

http://i.imgur.com/FrTLOgC.png

[Misadventure]

For PVP use the Diablo 3 model:

Throw FX everywhere.

Everything you hit spews forth a pinatas worth of character expression and development, theme expression, and social issue change.

Just make it so the villain gathers UP this potential by initially succeeding, and banking escape plan mechanisms.

It becomes a little engine.

[fatefan]

@bored Was this HeroMUX? Because the Deathstroke there, right before it closed, was a goddamn RP machine. (That is to say, if so: I salute you.)