Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning

lordbelh · Nov 28, 2016, 6:02 AM

@WTFE You might not realize it, but you're coming off as the crazy person in this back and forth with @apos.

Goyim · Nov 28, 2016, 6:07 AM

Is it really that hard to make a throw away email address?

It's like a five minute time investment.

Sunny · Nov 28, 2016, 6:19 AM

Did...you not read any of @Apos's posts? For serious? It seems like you didn't read any of his posts besides the one you quoted.

WTFE · Nov 28, 2016, 6:42 AM

@Sunny said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@WTFE

Did...you not read any of @Apos's posts? For serious? It seems like you didn't read any of his posts besides the one you quoted.

I read the excuses for why they want email and I reject them. (I reject them, incidentally, not as J. Random Clueless Fuckwad. I reject them as, you know, a programmer who does this shit for a living again.) The issues they have for emails are issues that are based on their choices. They chose to construct things that required email instead of going without email registration. And I'm saying that requiring an email is an automatic "nope, time to walk away".

That @Kanye-Qwest got his nose out of joint over it is just pudding with the roast beef. That @Apos disagrees is just him disagreeing (and being bad at his "job"--for want of a better term--but that's neither here nor there: most people are bad at their jobs).

But no amount of repeating the mantra "just use a temp email" is going to change the fact (and yes, it is actually a fact) that requiring email for a pretendy fun-time game is an idiotic decision from the get-go. Especially given, again, the history that is paired with such requirements.

I'm sure it made life easier for the coder at one point or another. Know what? I honestly don't give a flying fuck how easy or difficult life is for the coder. (Know what else? My employer's users don't give a flying fuck how easy or difficult it is for me to program the shit I program.) In the end code is for the benefit of the user, not the coder.

Arx looks like a really cool project. No, really it does. But the email requirement is an insta-Nope.

Sunny · Nov 28, 2016, 6:48 AM

@WTFE

Okay, then. Your loss.

Edited to add: Also, no. It is not a fact. It is a bias on your part.

Meg · Nov 28, 2016, 7:05 AM

But-- the-- email-- isn't required--. As Apos has said. Yes, the system is designed for an email, but individually, that can be waived and done by hand, as Apos has said.

Like, I get being annoyed by code that isn't done the way you'd do it. (Hey, I'm a programmer too!) But literally, people are going to code things the way they code them. If that's a deal breaker for you, that sucks, too bad. There's certainly no requirement for you to use it. But-- why are you so invested in it being the /wrong/ choice?

There's no right/wrong in code. Only wrong. And tears.

WTFE · Nov 28, 2016, 7:14 AM

@Meg said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

But-- the-- email-- isn't required--. As Apos has said. Yes, the system is designed for an email, but individually, that can be waived and done by hand, as Apos has said.

That is quibbling over semantics. Email is required unless you happen to be on when Apos is on so he can manually override the code.

"Stopping at a red light isn't required because a cop can just wave you through."

There's no right/wrong in code. Only wrong. And tears.

I hear this. Mostly the tears.

Wizz · Nov 28, 2016, 7:42 AM

I've got to say, this is one of the most inane things to argue about that I've ever seen here.

Apos · Nov 28, 2016, 7:47 AM

@Wizz Yeah I'm def willing to say 'my bad' about that.

Goyim · Nov 28, 2016, 7:58 AM

I don't think there's ever been any roster game (esp one where characters have plot sensitive secrets) that didn't require admin approval. You could end up accidentally taking a character that's part of the milkman conspiracy and is secretly plotting your other character's demise.

I played Arx for a month. Felt there was way too much OOC collusion from the player-base and not alot of plot to pursue. I decided I'd wait until the game went live since it'd be easier to inject my character into stuff. Since found out my PC's password was scrambled for inactivity during what I was told was a pregame testing period so I couldn't come back even if I wanted to, but that might have been my fault for not giving forewarning before vanishing. Welp.

@Apos and @Kanye-Qwest were always super cool when dealing with me even if I argue with the latter all the time.

Ganymede · Nov 28, 2016, 1:57 PM

@Goyim

Actually, I did play at Arx. I created and played Grim for a short while. After playing, I realized it wasn't for me, so I left. My decision to leave had nothing to do with the e-mail requirement, as I'm sure you read (if you read) my comments.

I've been saying this since before this board again, but I'll say it again: staff is under no obligation to respond to criticism made here. Letting negative criticism of game policies go untouched is not an indicum of softness.

And if you are going to respond, do so with some semblance of decorum, no matter how absurd or unreasonable the critic sounds.

Arkandel · Nov 28, 2016, 2:18 PM

@Goyim said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

I played Arx for a month. Felt there was way too much OOC collusion from the player-base and not alot of plot to pursue. I decided I'd wait until the game went live since it'd be easier to inject my character into stuff.

That was...about verbatim, word for word, my experience.

Arx has a lot of potential. It has good staff - by which I mean it has staff who care about and understand roleplay, and they're willing to do the day-to-day work to keep their standards high. That's something few MU* do these days - most just put a wiki and a grid up, wrap it all up in some theme and let it fly on its own with little extra diligence after that. This game is different, you could tell it was a project its people actually cared for.

But there was nothing happening. You could be in one of the few cliques that had things between themselves but even those were islands; if you weren't in one of those groups you might as well not exist at all though. And at least while I was playing there wasn't really a system for players to run plot themselves so I couldn't even do my usual thing and get things going on a smaller scale.

Either way the e-mail account requirement simply never factored into my decision to leave at all.

Lisse24 · Nov 28, 2016, 2:42 PM

To be fair to Arx, this is a problem in any game that is either politically driven or deals with a central plot. Players will naturally circle up into self-made cliques and share plot details with other players that they like. I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing for players to play with people they like. The only time it becomes a real problem is when it becomes difficult for other players to break into the cliques and find RP and/or interact with plot in a meaningful way, which is why any game inspiring to be what Arx is needs to think long and hard about how to pull people out of their cliques and about how plot gets distributed.

I don't think Arx has this solved, but I would be surprised if it did. I do think they're making positive moves. The task system is still being worked on, but it encourages people to move out of their spheres. I think it could be modified to do this more than it does at the moment, but I know redesign is already being thought about. Also implemented is the @randomscene command which incentivizes each player seeking out 3 random people to RP with in the space of a week.

I think Arx staff would add that anyone can put in an investigation. While this is technically true and something one often hears about during these discussions, a player needs to be involved enough that they know what meaningful type of investigation to run and they need to have a RP circle to share the results with before that is a true way to encourage diverse RP and plot involvement, in my opinion.

TLDR; You're right, it's an issue, but every game of this type would have this issue and Arx is actively working on resolutions.

Kanye Qwest · Nov 28, 2016, 3:06 PM

@WTFE said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

But no amount of repeating the mantra "just use a temp email" is going to change the fact (and yes, it is actually a fact) that requiring email for a pretendy fun-time game is an idiotic decision from the get-go. Especially given, again, the history that is paired with such requirements.

So do you promise that an email requirement will keep you away? Asking for a friend!

Arkandel · Nov 28, 2016, 3:08 PM

@Lisse24 said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

To be fair to Arx, this is a problem in any game that is either politically driven or deals with a central plot. Players will naturally circle up into self-made cliques and share plot details with other players that they like. I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing for players to play with people they like. The only time it becomes a real problem is when it becomes difficult for other players to break into the cliques and find RP and/or interact with plot in a meaningful way, which is why any game inspiring to be what Arx is needs to think long and hard about how to pull people out of their cliques and about how plot gets distributed.

I don't think Arx has this solved, but I would be surprised if it did. I do think they're making positive moves. The task system is still being worked on, but it encourages people to move out of their spheres. I think it could be modified to do this more than it does at the moment, but I know redesign is already being thought about. Also implemented is the @randomscene command which incentivizes each player seeking out 3 random people to RP with in the space of a week.

I think Arx staff would add that anyone can put in an investigation. While this is technically true and something one often hears about during these discussions, a player needs to be involved enough that they know what meaningful type of investigation to run and they need to have a RP circle to share the results with before that is a true way to encourage diverse RP and plot involvement, in my opinion.@Lisse24 said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
To be fair to Arx, this is a problem in any game that is either politically driven or deals with a central plot. Players will naturally circle up into self-made cliques and share plot details with other players that they like.

See, that depends on the political game's setup. The key - and I've seen it sometimes although it's almost always happened organically and not by design - is to make the political struggle such that factions need to branch out because every character they recruit for their cause is a resource they can't be without.

On sandbox games this isn't really a requirement. When you're on a generic MU* where your actions don't affect the environment and your group is doing its own thing in its little island which doesn't affect any other groups' islands who cares about that lone guy who just rolled? He can be very easily overlooked and often is.

So yes, this resource system definitely sounds like a step in the right direction but the game should be gearing itself for its politics to matter. If the result looks rigged or the situation is static then there's no need for constant mobility and recruitment - even the OOC variety, where you go to a good player you know and you ask them to come roll because they are needed. People respond very well to that kind of thing "hey, come play with us, we need you". It's the exact opposite effect of cliques' where, instead of being shut out, you are a wanted commodity.

Plot is also a great motivator - introduce little tensions between factions and see how they respond. It really doesn't take a lot, just nudges are enough to fuel roleplay - but the nudges are still needed. Arx needs to make the move to player-ran stories.

Pyrephox · Nov 28, 2016, 3:28 PM

@Arkandel I don't think it's fair to hold a game that was explicitly in alpha testing, where the staff outright said, "No real plot movement will take place because we're mostly testing systems and mechanics" to the same standards you'd hold a fully released game.

Now, that said, is it fair to try it out, realize you don't want to play a game in alpha, and bop away? Absolutely. No one is obligated to play a game that isn't for them, no matter what. And I feel like alpha should have a few more game resets myself, to let staff do some of the more significant changes that I, at least, still feel the mechanics need, without penalizing/benefiting characters unevenly.

Now that the game's in beta, though, I'd be hard-pressed to argue that nothing is happening and there is no plot. Now, for the most part, the events and things happening are fairly subtle, because a lot of people's secrets are things on the downlow that provide extra context and information. But those things aren't confined, as far as I can see, to particular social classes, backgrounds, or 'proximity to staff'. In fact, there are things spread /incredibly/ widely over the character base, so much so that I feel like more people are frustrated by "can't know/participate in it all" than "I have nothing to get involved with."

But I think a political/intrigue game does require some commitment to choosing a character who would be involved in the plot you want to see, and then seeking that out, both IC, and by communicating OOC with staff during character creation. Roster characters tend to be excellent in that regards (much to my surprise), but if you want to make a custom character, you'll probably have to be a much more proactive person. Not because you might not have an awesome secret, but because you have to make more of a 'place' for yourself. Especially if you ALSO want to be in a custom family, or no family at all (and not affiliated with any family, either). So, yeah, if you're the lone guy who just rolled, and chose no political or family ties to anyone else on the grid? You're gonna need to find a reason to make people care, and it might take a little while. People should meet you halfway, but not be expected to cross the whole field.

Arkandel · Nov 28, 2016, 3:35 PM

@Pyrephox said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Arkandel I don't think it's fair to hold a game that was explicitly in alpha testing, where the staff outright said, "No real plot movement will take place because we're mostly testing systems and mechanics" to the same standards you'd hold a fully released game.

That's reasonable, and I've made provisions about the alpha/beta status before in my posts although granted - I didn't do it on the one above. That's on me.

However that's in line with what some people were saying; and since no one can really judge a game on the merits of what it can become, only what it is, that's what I was suggesting solutions and approaches for.

Believe me, it's not because we don't care about Arx but because we do; now, I think it beats the alternative of saying nothing, but if criticism is deemed to be unfair or nonconstructive I would be happy to offer none.

Tinuviel · Nov 28, 2016, 4:04 PM

There ~~has~~ have been rumours laid down by unnamed sources that many Firan ex-pats have found themselves on Arx and have crafted niches and cliques. It's just a hypothesis, but it explains a great deal.

Kanye Qwest · Nov 28, 2016, 4:15 PM

@Goyim said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

I don't think there's ever been any roster game (esp one where characters have plot sensitive secrets) that didn't require admin approval. You could end up accidentally taking a character that's part of the milkman conspiracy and is secretly plotting your other character's demise.

I played Arx for a month. Felt there was way too much OOC collusion from the player-base and not alot of plot to pursue. I decided I'd wait until the game went live since it'd be easier to inject my character into stuff. Since found out my PC's password was scrambled for inactivity during what I was told was a pregame testing period so I couldn't come back even if I wanted to, but that might have been my fault for not giving forewarning before vanishing. Welp.

@Apos and @Kanye-Qwest were always super cool when dealing with me even if I argue with the latter all the time.

No idea who you played, but that doesn't mean you can't come back, by the by. Can apply for a character to check out beta, or make your own! Your OC can be soft 'frozen' for inactivity, meaning I think income is frozen, etc, but you can always come back to it.