Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning
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@Meg said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
I was going to say something fancy and eloquent, but I will just say that I wasn't trying to point out any one person, player, or character. It is understandably fun to play flawed, to play the antagonist. I am more than happy to play against that. I just think that as a whole, culturally, you also have to be aware of how you're coming across to others. And that is valid too for the rest of the factions, that we should be aware too.
Oh, I didn't mean you singled anyone out, I was just trying to explain an insider's view of it. It's always a challenge to try and interpret what other players are thinking or feeling OOC about ongoing roleplay even if you do talk to them and it's perilous to try and guess it otherwise as it leads to situations where it's easy to assume the worse. It's a tempting point of view since sometimes you do end up feeling you're the odd person out in scenes, but it leads to a lot of negativity.
Personally I don't give a single shit if my character manages to pull off any of the several wacky plots he has cooking; in fact I'm pretty sure some of his plans can't ever come to bear. What I enjoy is the political backdrop in a clash of cultures, yet on the other hand what I don't want to do is make him a progressive, liberal person because... well, then I'd be playing an idealized version of myself, which just... isn't as entertaining for anyone involved.
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@Clarity said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
I've shown several people the log of the conversation, including a couple of independent people who have never played Arx, and pretty much everyone agreed with the fact that they didn't feel I had been trying to dissuade her. But as mentioned before, if she at all felt like I was, as I posted earlier, I apologise. I never wanted to do that. I was just trying to help.
Yeah, it's really nice that you have some yes men willing to back you up, but, taking myself as an example? I've had no less than three people at some point remark on you freezing someone out of RP, and ask if I can help facilitate involvement. So clearly there are people who feel this way, and what you should maybe do is invite them to CONSTRUCTIVELY (this is important) point out where they feel things went sour. If they're rude or abusive or passive aggressive while doing so you have every right to shut them down, but rather than trying to prove how right you are, maybe take a moment to weigh the impressions of those you've played with and ask "why do you feel this is so"?
This hobby does not exist in a vacuum. I understand you believe your own motives were pure - I played from the exact same position for many years, and I didn't have the tools to understand the level of objectivity of approach that was needed. But if you want to continue in this hobby and actually have fun and feel included with a broad spectrum of people (instead of just your yes men) than you need to be savvy enough to recognize that your intent and what people see are not the same thing, and if you don't understand why things are veering off and giving an impression you don't understand, you need to ask why, and be willing to view the situation from the other person's shoes. In all seriousness? Even if you STILL don't see it, a lot of people will become ten shades warmer if you just reach out about it in the first place; it shows maturity by giving them the opportunity to break it down for you.
"If you stand for nothing Burr, what will you fall for?"
-- Hamilton: An American Musical -
@Cupcake - There's some real, hard won wisdom in this post.
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It is also possible that some people react differently to the exact same wording and actions, so to some one appears as something positive, to other as a negative. It may have little to do with the actual core intentions or even the tools used. In the end, your audience can be stupid. You can either try to accommodate the stupid or avoid it, or get used to it mouth breathing about you til you go away.
It would be nice if everyone could be aware of this idea, and maybe give people more slack, but whatever.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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@Cupcake Holy hell this is very relevant. And this is only something I'm personally becoming aware of in the last few months. Many times, we don't see how we're coming off to other people, and even less do we stop to consider the ramifications or perceptions of the things we do on MU. And sometimes, we don't want to see it. I know I didn't. Not for a very long time.
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This is so very, very true, a MUSH is a text only medium, people have no idea what your intended tone of voice is and thus how you mean to say whatever it is you just typed.
This can really easily lead to a gigantic degree of antagonism as people assume the worst of whomever they are talking with, it is easy to see somebody who from their perspective is making an observation they do not even feel that strongly about, as angrily ranting, arguing, etc. It is an especially easy trap to fall into when you are staff, somebody points out 'Hey, X does not seem right' and it is very easy to see it as a personal attack on your decisions, or said person as attributing huge important to something irrelevant.
The moment you start assuming people are being outright argumentative or confrontational is the moment where that starts actually being true.
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@Misadventure said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
It is also possible that some people react differently to the exact same wording and actions, so to some one appears as something positive, to other as a negative. It may have little to do with the actual core intentions or even the tools used. In the end, your audience can be stupid. You can either try to accommodate the stupid or avoid it, or get used to it mouth breathing about you til you go away.
It would be nice if everyone could be aware of this idea, and maybe give people more slack, but whatever.
It's also why it's very important for staff on a game to be careful about their tone, both when speaking to players and between themselves. It's too easy to send the wrong message and open up mistrust between players and staff.
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@Packrat said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
This is so very, very true, a MUSH is a text only medium, people have no idea what your intended tone of voice is and thus how you mean to say whatever it is you just typed.
And this is why I read everything in Ben Stein's classic tone. On top of that, when in doubt: ask.
Instead of waiting to find out if someone's being a catty bitch. Say: "Hey, are you being a catty bitch?"
If someone inquires with yourself: "Hey, are you being a catty bitch?" Then you may proceed to answer in the negative or affirmative as is required by your cattiness or lack thereof.
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@Lisse24 said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
@Pondscum said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
I'll say it again, it's being staffed by people that staffed on Firan. Why anyone expected anything different to the mentality that prevailed there, I have no idea.
That's a red herring. Plenty of Firan's staff were fine people, who saw a game with an interesting theme and a large player base that wanted to help out. Some staff were fine people, who were in a staffing environment that was distorted and dysfunctional and ended up showing their worst self instead of their best self. Some staff were fine people, but shouldn't have been staff.
Many Firan staffers have diffused out into the MU community at large to play and even staff on other games. From what I've seen, they generally have good reputations.
This is why I try not to bring what I think of a person on one game to another, regardless if they seem repeat offenders. Obviously, good things come with me because I like being with people I enjoy the company of. In general I find each game forges a certain culture and people behave according to that culture staff breeds (and yes, I say staff in this case because, in general, it starts with what they allow and expands from there).
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@Cupcake
I am one of the individuals who has seen the log. Now, I have no idea about the circumstances discussed in the log, so I can't say whether she lied about what was going or not and I don't know if the log was doctored or not or even if that log was the impetus for the ban. That aside, what I did read seemed reasonable and looked to be what I would tell a new player too. It was a lot of 'this is what has happened thus far, here is the situation and facts around it, and you might want to be aware of these potential pitfalls and dangers that are looming.'Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Ominous said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
@Cupcake
I am one of the individuals who has seen the log. Now, I have no idea about the circumstances discussed in the log, so I can't say whether she lied about what was going or not and I don't know if the log was doctored or not or even if that log was the impetus for the ban. That aside, what I did read seemed reasonable and looked to be what I would tell a new player too. It was a lot of 'this is what has happened thus far, here is the situation and facts around it, and you might want to be aware of these potential pitfalls and dangers that are looming.'I have not. But as it is, a lot of people have made their feelings known and it's worth reviewing. Like I said, I understand "best intention, bad outcome".
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@Packrat said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
This is so very, very true, a MUSH is a text only medium, people have no idea what your intended tone of voice is and thus how you mean to say whatever it is you just typed.
This is one of the reasons that if ever I have staff who have to translate surreality into people-speak? At least once, I need to have a chat with them on skype -- even if it's just once, because the number of misunderstandings this has prevented is stunning; same as if I end up talking to someone later and there's the forehead smack moment of, 'Oh! I totally get it, now!'. Problem being, I type in precisely the same weird-ass way I talk, but a lot of times I go off into crazy hyperbole that I know is meant in a silly tone to keep the mood light because I'm more or less a living cartoon of a person (it is so much worse with video, for real, no one would be able to take me seriously ever again), but... all the sigh in the world with that sometimes, because I forget how much tone is a thing.
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I'm going to begin by saying: On the whole, I really like Arx; I try to contribute; and I willfully attempt suspend disbelief and ignore things/let things go that I don't want to cause trouble about.
But I have questions, and they are by and large questions I am afraid to ask online, because there's no real debate about them and it makes me look like an ass when there's arguments about things that have to be settled.
Here's some things that are dichotomies that must be accepted on the game that I have questions about. Please note: my conclusions or even statements may well be incorrect, poor, or stupid. But I feel uncomfortable even bringing them up in-game:Thralldom:
a) PvP is highly discouraged.
b) Thrax holds thralls, which are indentured servants who are oft kept by increasing debts.
c) Opposing Thrax seems to be a bad idea and only doable politically, and at great risk.
d) Opposing Thrax regarding thralls from within seems to be a problem as well (I have no personal experience, just anecdotes).
e) Most anyone who isn't Thrax is instilled societally with a definitive dislike for the concept of thralldom.So playing a character who would do something about it as-written, it appears as if you're throttled both whether you want to work in the system to fix it , or outside the system to topple it.
Prostitution:
a) There are no prostitutes or sex-workers on Arx, and no one sells or buys sex.
b) Presumably this is for a variety of reasons, but the concept that prostitution is victimization of folks in sex work is probably one of them.
c) That's cool because they don't want to deal with the problems of whores. Which given some folks' reactions to it on Firan makes some sense.
d) Considering the fact that not all sex workers are victimized and, moreover, that there are many types of sex workers historically who were revered which could easily be placed in a fantasy world as the norm, I don't really get it.
e) But especially: contrast this with Thralldom, above. Why is indentured servitude accepted by even a portion of the population while sex work is accepted by none of the population?Human Sexuality:
a) Part and parcel of the bit on prostitution above is that no one pays for sex because people are enlightened about it, they can have sex without fear of disease or pregnancy.
b) The majority of the people who play on the game come from cultural backgrounds where the above are at least mostly true (condoms, et cetera). However, many of these cultures also have a history of condemning sexuality.
c) Even in a fantasy world where it's okay, it's difficult for people to play things without sexual judgment based on their experience in the real world. I've seen homosexual characters hiding their light under a bushel, so to speak, even though they'd really be no different than anyone else in a society as described. I've rarely seen sex discussed. I was involved in a duel over the idea of polyamory where my character was portrayed as less than honorable because of a publically-expressed (non-sexual) musing about it. I'm willing to fully own the idea that I portrayed myself poorly, or that I was wrong.
d) The intent of a full-sexual-freedom world does not seem to me to be embraced by the players or, in my opinion, even possible.I'll add to the last bit, if it matters: While I have in the past, it's been many years since I myself pursued TS, and I don't seek it out (I was pursuing romance, not sex). Further, I can't really imagine any society that prostitution in one form or another wouldn't happen. There's always going to be someone who wants a different sort of sex that they cannot easily find or negotiate for free, and there's always going to be someone willing to sell or trade that.
In conclusion: frankly, I'd be happier with a game where there was a flat-out statement: We don't want to touch on human sexuality here because people have many varied and different opinions and expressions thereof, so please don't play here if that's what you want. I don't know how I would handle it on any game I decided to run, though, and not having a solution of my own, I can't condemn staff for their choices; I'm a fan of acceptance of all beliefs and expressions of sexuality. I will, however, say that I'm perplexed by them no matter how many times I go over it in my head. Hence this post, because I don't think I can safely have a meaningful, calm and reasoned discussion about it on game. (Asking for a meaningful discussion about it on MUSoapbox is probably not the best choice either, but I don't really feel I have anyplace else I can go to where people might get the question and help me try to answer it.)
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Reading about the bans and the logs, especially with the former being so, as someone stated 'nuclear' as far as a reaction, my fear is that it's going to make players more afraid of staff than willing to reach out to them, as it has done with me. I'm legit //terrified// of saying //anything// in OOC, be they pages or public channels, that it will be taken the wrong way, presented to staff, and then held against me at some later date, no matter how great my reputation for being a helpful player is. I don't want to log into a game where I'm scared half the time that I'll do something that I think is at worse, neutral and at best, helpful, and have it taken to staff and presented as me being something I sincerely wasn't. I'm trying to trust that my previous actions and general track record will ensure that staff will talk to me first before making such a 'nuclear' decisions as banning me, but at the moment it's hard to get past all the knee-jerk reactions and rampant rumors.
I say this while I deeply love the game and in general the Arx community. I really hope things get better and don't degrade into an environment full of anxiety and fear. I love my character and I'd hate to lose him just because I was misunderstood.
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I can't believe we're on page 47 of this thread and the prostitution conversation is happening again. Hold me, somebody.
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@saosmash Will you pay me first? >.>
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@yourmamasayswhat I CAN GET IT FOR FREE.
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@Shayd said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
I'm going to begin by saying: On the whole, I really like Arx; I try to contribute; and I willfully attempt suspend disbelief and ignore things/let things go that I don't want to cause trouble about.
But I have questions, and they are by and large questions I am afraid to ask online, because there's no real debate about them and it makes me look like an ass when there's arguments about things that have to be settled.
Here's some things that are dichotomies that must be accepted on the game that I have questions about. Please note: my conclusions or even statements may well be incorrect, poor, or stupid. But I feel uncomfortable even bringing them up in-game:Thralldom:
a) PvP is highly discouraged.
b) Thrax holds thralls, which are indentured servants who are oft kept by increasing debts.
c) Opposing Thrax seems to be a bad idea and only doable politically, and at great risk.
d) Opposing Thrax regarding thralls from within seems to be a problem as well (I have no personal experience, just anecdotes).
e) Most anyone who isn't Thrax is instilled societally with a definitive dislike for the concept of thralldom.So playing a character who would do something about it as-written, it appears as if you're throttled both whether you want to work in the system to fix it , or outside the system to topple it.
There are definitely multiple PCs who are pursuing anti-thralldom initiatives. I think it's designed to not be easy, because it's a huge cultural and economic foundation in Thrax.
Prostitution:
a) There are no prostitutes or sex-workers on Arx, and no one sells or buys sex.
b) Presumably this is for a variety of reasons, but the concept that prostitution is victimization of folks in sex work is probably one of them.
c) That's cool because they don't want to deal with the problems of whores. Which given some folks' reactions to it on Firan makes some sense.
d) Considering the fact that not all sex workers are victimized and, moreover, that there are many types of sex workers historically who were revered which could easily be placed in a fantasy world as the norm, I don't really get it.
e) But especially: contrast this with Thralldom, above. Why is indentured servitude accepted by even a portion of the population while sex work is accepted by none of the population?The exchange of sex for money is something that can happen in Arx, per the helpfiles. It's not a formalized career, so there aren't really words for someone who would do it as a profession. It's not that it's not accepted by the population, it's that it's just not in demand enough for a bunch of full-time workers.
Human Sexuality:
a) Part and parcel of the bit on prostitution above is that no one pays for sex because people are enlightened about it, they can have sex without fear of disease or pregnancy.
b) The majority of the people who play on the game come from cultural backgrounds where the above are at least mostly true (condoms, et cetera). However, many of these cultures also have a history of condemning sexuality.
c) Even in a fantasy world where it's okay, it's difficult for people to play things without sexual judgment based on their experience in the real world. I've seen homosexual characters hiding their light under a bushel, so to speak, even though they'd really be no different than anyone else in a society as described. I've rarely seen sex discussed. I was involved in a duel over the idea of polyamory where my character was portrayed as less than honorable because of a publically-expressed (non-sexual) musing about it. I'm willing to fully own the idea that I portrayed myself poorly, or that I was wrong.
d) The intent of a full-sexual-freedom world does not seem to me to be embraced by the players or, in my opinion, even possible.If people are playing that homosexuality needs to be hidden or that polyamory is societally unacceptable, they're just playing theme incorrectly. I've seen people get corrected for stuff like throwing out some IC homophobia and whatnot. Yeah, it's always hard to settle theme in a way that's contrary to something we're very much used to IRL, but people just have to be corrected.
Also if you want to see sex discussed IC you are more than welcome to RP with Aleksei. He'll totally talk about it!
In conclusion: frankly, I'd be happier with a game where there was a flat-out statement: We don't want to touch on human sexuality here because people have many varied and different opinions and expressions thereof, so please don't play here if that's what you want.
I don't think that statement would be at all true, though.
