Arx- Gareth

[Lisse24]

@Kireek If they thought you were into every little status boost and not into plot it's because that's the vibe you are giving out. In this thread, I've heard the following things mentioned:

• Admitted to throwing a fit about another character's stats,
• Being enthusiastic enough about recruiting people to your house that it might be offputting (perhaps because it was viewed as being coercive?)
• Complaining about a change made to code because it disadvantaged you, even though the game was in alpha.
• Speaking with others about the support system, with the intent of getting more support requests in for your character - an obvious attempt to maximize a system-in-work for your chars benefit.
• Admitting to "trying to further our faction to the best of our abilities."
• You referring to sides

None of this in isolation is worrying or bad, but when you put it all together, you do get the image of a competitive player going for every last point. Given that the game is still in alpha, and that systems are still in the testing phase and that many systems are designed to be voluntary, surely you can see how you would give the impression that you did?

[deadculture]

While the OOC parts of the charges levied on the man seem reasonable (like speaking with others about the support system, throwing a fit about another character's stats, complaining about code changes) how is being competitive as a player bad? Since when are players NOT competitive? 'Story first!' you might say, but in the end, you still want your story to turn out like a good run, instead of an aborted attempt at one.

I guess people should just go out and say he had an abrasive twinky behavior (And look, I don't play Arx, no horse in this race) instead of going like, 'You were competitive!'

[Ganymede]

@deadculture said in Arx- Gareth:

While the OOC parts of the charges levied on the man seem reasonable (like speaking with others about the support system, throwing a fit about another character's stats, complaining about code changes) how is being competitive as a player bad?

It's not bad to be competitive as a player. I'm a very competitive player.

But I don't take it OOC, or try to get people to break rules, or try to coerce people into playing what's needed for my faction (rather than what they want to play), or try to get an advantage during the Alpha-development stage of a game.

Staff always has the discretion to determine who they want on their game and when, so I can't fault them for making the call here.

[Coin]

He's also just kind of a jerk? I don't play at Arx (not yet anyway) but in every other game I've seen him, he has been rude, confrontational, annoying (at best) and downright insulting at times to people for no reason other than he disagrees with something. He's also creepy as fuck, if reports have any validity at all, but that last is second-hand knowledge.

[Kanye Qwest]

I didn't even realize he was doing what he did to Dawn, or he would have been asked to leave sooner. We (Apostate and I both) talked to this player about his OOC behavior and his negativity at any changes announced (usually because they were damaging some advantage he thought he was building up), because what is very important to us is that embittered or high maintenance people don't drive away new, inexperienced players.

I think it's pretty telling that you didn't give the actual reason Apostate gave for asking you to leave.

"The problem is it is too fundamental to personality conflicts and that I just don't have time since I'd have to be coaching you constantly to avoid the kind of things I see as problematic and I just cannot do that and run the game. I really wish it was otherwise but it won't work out."

You were told more than once, publicly and privately, that we value fun and demand OOC civility. You were told specifically that we don't allow you to harass/cajole/even ask players for IC support OOC, and told explicitly that you are not to ask players about their stats. I get that these things might not seem like a big deal, and in the grand scheme of things, they absolutely aren't. But we have a very, very small staff, and we intend to keep it that way by reducing GM overhead and busywork, and being firm and prompt about removing players we feel will demand more work from us. We aren't babysitters, so if you keep doing things that mean we have to keep watching you for problematic behavior, that's you..

For Arx, we have convictions about the game and the type of environment we are trying to foster, and we stand by those. I'm sorry that asking you to leave Arx upset you, I know that has to suck. I'm not sorry that we asked you to leave.

[Kanye Qwest]

Double post, I know! I'm the worst. I just wanted to say: we did not talk to/ask Gareth's player to leave for being creepy. I mean, the character he was playing was kind of creepy, but I got no impression (or reports) that he was being inappropriately creepy or harassing female players or anything like that.

His playstyle wasn't a good fit for Arx, but I didn't think he was being a terrible person, is what I'm trying to say.

[SG]

@Tinuviel said in Arx- Gareth:

Holy fucking ellipses, Batman.

Hhahaha, I got yelled at once for asking someone why they abused ellipses so hard, I was wondering what they were leaving out of their poses. RPing with them was like roleplaying with a redacted novel. They said they were an english major and that ellipses were equivalent to a comma.

[Misadventure]

Ellipses are the equivalent to one expression of a comma, if you see them as needing an audible pause to sentence clear when spoken, in addition to grammatically dividing up the sentences.

Otherwise I've seen them used as a trailing end to a spoken line. "Well, you know ... "

Though I suppose that indicates something left unsaid, annnd we are back to redacted.

[ThatOneDude]

@SG ...

Maybe they meant more: An ellipsis can also indicate hesitation, though in this case the punctuation is more accurately described as suspension points.

It seems like the ellipsis is overused/misused more than exclamation marks.

Full disclosure, I have a BS in Computer Science and an MBA so I'm not an English major, just a guy that knows how to use Google.

[SG]

@Misadventure I could see that used for effect once in a while... but... when every goddamned comma is an ellispes... it gets really... really annoying to read.

[Misadventure]

"Let's eat ... grandma!"

[Auspice]

I've been playing a Grayson for all of... one scene. Never really interacted with Gareth.

Kinda glad about it now.

Even before everything else was revealed here, I'm looking back to one of his first posts. He's upset he lost work on 'solving the plot' (which he admits wasn't even yet 'released')... on a game that's still in alpha.

I'm sorry, but that's not even someone I want to play with. The person who games systems and takes every advantage they can find so they get to 'win the MU*.' Yeah, no. Those people have traditionally just ruined the fun for me if they're in the same faction/family/whathaveyou that I am. Mostly because it invariably turns into me getting OOCly pestered to do the same gaming of the system they are.

[Kireek]

@Kayne Qwest If you don't realize that people have been asking for ooc support in games and talking oocly about the game I have to ask what exactly were you hoping to happen? The sad fact of the matter I too have been personally asked by a number of people oocly which by definition broke the rules about support and asking for support. The thing is I didn't get upset about it, even in scenes where I supported 1 or 0, and was asked, I didn't feel pressured, and the thing is.. people are still going to be doing it.

You were told more than once, publicly and privately, that we value fun and demand OOC civility. You were told specifically that we don't allow you to harass/cajole/even ask players for IC support OOC, and told explicitly that you are not to ask players about their stats. I get that these things might not seem like a big deal, and in the grand scheme of things, they absolutely aren't. But we have a very, very small staff, and we intend to keep it that way by reducing GM overhead and busywork, and being firm and prompt about removing players we feel will demand more work from us. We aren't babysitters, so if you keep doing things that mean we have to keep watching you for problematic behavior, that's you..

So I just want to summarize-
1.May be being a little overly sensitive on that issue- but fair enough, I'll concede that point. All I ask is that when the support system got blown up on the channels as decreasing usability and I was only once voice in that debate of a number.. did those people also get an equal talking to? If not, why not?

2.Lul. Harass, nonsense. Unfortunately you are by definition creating an atmosphere where even being friendly about asking for support can be construed as lawbreaking and rule breaking- the worst part is that just sent all that shit underground and out of the game. Do you think the houses with large support networks are getting that support without reminding people to make sure they do their support? It happens, and instead of banning it outright.. it perhaps might of been wiser to try and regulate it because now players who know each other are just going to keep talking about it secretly while new players without those connections are going to be functioning without a paddle.

3. Did not ask to see that players stats. If saying I'm curious about the rest of a players sheet now once I learned they had freely offered 100 xp into another bit of stats is asking.. and then they offer it, I didn't technically ask, did I, I never demanded they tell me either.

4,Personality Conflict- I really have a hard time buying that.... but okay... love that is an offense now... and is definitely something you can pin on me... so alright fair enough?... Words.. Every... word..

@Ganymede said in Arx- Gareth:

But I don't take it OOC, or try to get people to break rules, or try to coerce people into playing what's needed for my faction (rather than what they want to play), or try to get an advantage during the Alpha-development stage of a game.

I don't know if I actually believe that sentiment is realistic Ganymede. You don't believe it's appropriate to talk oocly about people in your factions about scenes you might want to have, why you haven't gotten the results you should of for things etc? In a game where I play an antagonistic character- it can often behoove me to speak oocly to people about things, to communicate feelings, emotions, sentiments, etc.

I also would ask, perhaps curiously..about the support system, and it forbidding OOC communication... leads me to the point of asking..

Has no one hear written a gentle reminder message to anyone in their lives about forgetting something? it's a fairly common practice in business and socially when it comes to asking for things... and its a fairly useful tool to communicate things between people. Such notes are attempted to be written as non-accusatory etc, and It's odd that such behavior, when combined with the fact if you outright tell people they don't have to do it is somehow discouraged in the game. Especially considering the changes made to the support system actually made support somewhat of a chore to actually do, (writing a number of complicated commands)- it was often something that people put off...............................................................................................................................

and then proceed to then forget about.

I had already found this point quite annoying, and frankly the charges that I was trying to intentionally get advantages during play is doubly unfounded.. I am just playing the games and systems that were given to me, as they were meant to be realistically used by people. I apped in a character who was supposed to solve crimes, and was given just constant pressure by a number of people icly to solve that crime. I never once claimed to actually of solved that plot, only that I had gained threads to follow and things to investigate in solving it. Which given that the game has been in alpha for several months is the best one can do given the information provided.

[Rucket]

Playing games is serious business @Auspice, jesus.

But for serious, this sounds like the most reasonable "please leave" situations I've seen in a while. If the game was in alpha, a time to test systems and provide feedback, why are you trying to "solve the game"? That seems a bit try hard.

[Kireek]

Again, just found plot threads to follow and investigate, they would likely me lead me to the end result. The seeds of what happened are kind of spread about all the other characters, and you can still pick up a few pieces. If positioning yourself well to solve the plot before the plot actually comes out is.. a problem then I'll accept that charge.

Again, this conversation took a rather odd turn when @Caryatid got involved, at least, that's personally how I feel about it considering I wonder if she was already well predisposed against me and then apped in a character that she knew was going to have to interact with me on a very regular basis... and then failed to inform me so I couldn't try and play with her in a way that would make her feel more comftrable.

[Ganymede]

@Kireek said in Arx- Gareth:

I don't know if I actually believe that sentiment is realistic Ganymede. You don't believe it's appropriate to talk oocly about people in your factions about scenes you might want to have, why you haven't gotten the results you should of for things etc? In a game where I play an antagonistic character- it can often behoove me to speak oocly to people about things, to communicate feelings, emotions, sentiments, etc.

It is very realistic, actually, because I picked my words carefully.

I said that I don't OOCly try to coerce people into playing what's needed for my faction rather than what they want to play. That is, if someone asks me what is needed to play a healer, I don't try to coerce them into a playing a warrior. Or to pick stats which benefit me or my faction.

This is not a subtle distinction.

For example, when I first came to RfK, I did so at the invitation of a friend who is also @lordbelh's friend. I fell into their RP group pretty quickly. While they told me what they liked to see, I ended up taking a different concept. And while I wasn't as useful to their faction stat-wise, I was an active participant and contributed in other ways that fit the concept I chose. At no time did anyone tell me how I should build my PC.

Obviously, if someone asks what I might need for my faction, the wheels come off. But that's very different than what I was talking about. Or what you're talking about.

[Rucket]

@Kireek Brah, I think people were willing to listen to what you had to say, but you yourself have already admitted to some actions that are questionable and have admitted to having hissy fits about things in public. Honestly, there's a point where feedback is great and a point where someone's opinions just can't be taken seriously any longer due to how they are putting those opinions out there.

The whole issue with support? I read the wiki. This page: http://play.arxmush.org/topics/Task Guide/ goes over a lot of the support stuff and makes it sound like people have options for how much or how little they want to support whatever you are doing. It even sounds like they can straight up bullshit you. I can see why Staff wouldn't want people paging and asking for the support, that would make it seem like you are telling someone they need to do it.

Also didn't someone mention @mails going out about it? If that's the case, that seems to be enough of a reminder for the person to offer support or not offer support. Whatever the case may be.

[Glitch]

@Kireek said in Arx- Gareth:

I wonder if she was already well predisposed against me and then apped in a character that she knew was going to have to interact with me on a very regular basis... and then failed to inform me so I couldn't try and play with her in a way that would make her feel more comftrable.

That's giving yourself a lot of presence in her life and headspace. She created a character specifically to make it so you wouldn't know it was her when she played with you just so you couldn't adjust your actions to suit? Because no one would want to play the Dawn character otherwise, right?

This song is definitely not about you.

[Caryatid]

@Kireek I was happy to try to work with you. Like I said, I tried to do so in a positive and productive manner. I noticed you behaving in ways I would not personally choose or condone but I also felt that it didn't affect my gameplay too much. When you paged me with negativity, I deliberately chose to answer with positivity or not respond at all. It felt like we had a decent balance until you went off on poor brand new Laric for an extended period of time because you were jealous of his sheet and scared he'd be better liked than you.

Maybe I should have said "dude, cool it" before that point. But I really did think a balance could be struck. You don't feel what you did was wrong. You feel the staff made policy decisions that were wrong. I'm sure there are games out there where your playstyle and opinions fit in perfectly. I don't think you're a bad guy. You're just not a match for this game.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Kireek said in Arx- Gareth:

@Kayne Qwest If you don't realize that people have been asking for ooc support in games and talking oocly about the game I have to ask what exactly were you hoping to happen? The sad fact of the matter I too have been personally asked by a number of people oocly which by definition broke the rules about support and asking for support. The thing is I didn't get upset about it, even in scenes where I supported 1 or 0, and was asked, I didn't feel pressured, and the thing is.. people are still going to be doing it.

People can talk OOCly about the game all they like. What you (and by you I mean everyone) are not allowed to do is pressure people OOC for support on your IC task. Those tasks give good rewards, and the reason they give good rewards is: we are using the task system to incentivize people ROLEPLAYING with each other. Sending a messenger and then paging someone "lul can u support me pls? i'll do u a favor in the future/won't inquisit you/everyone is doing it". That is not allowed. And if people do it, and we hear about it, they will be warned and then asked to leave.

So I just want to summarize-
1.May be being a little overly sensitive on that issue- but fair enough, I'll concede that point. All I ask is that when the support system got blown up on the channels as decreasing usability and I was only once voice in that debate of a number.. did those people also get an equal talking to? If not, why not?

No one got talked to for disagreeing with changes or offering alternatives/complaints. Not even you. I think what you are really asking here is "did other people who were NOT being constructive, and were just upset about the changes get talked to?" There were only two of you doing that. And the answer is yes - though don't imply that is the only reason you got that talk. You were always saying "Sigh" or "grumps" or "bleh" or "this kind of...sucks" on public channels, and frankly we don't want people being huge mopey downers in our public channels. You were invited several times to make posts on the system discussions board, or put in requests with your thoughts/objections/alternative ideas. How many times did you take advantage of that?

2.Lul. Harass, nonsense. Unfortunately you are by definition creating an atmosphere where even being friendly about asking for support can be construed as lawbreaking and rule breaking- the worst part is that just sent all that shit underground and out of the game. Do you think the houses with large support networks are getting that support without reminding people to make sure they do their support? It happens, and instead of banning it outright.. it perhaps might of been wiser to try and regulate it because now players who know each other are just going to keep talking about it secretly while new players without those connections are going to be functioning without a paddle.

If that happens, we'll adjust! The game is in alpha (though I think it's a matter of DAYS at this point. Woo!)

3. Did not ask to see that players stats. If saying I'm curious about the rest of a players sheet now once I learned they had freely offered 100 xp into another bit of stats is asking.. and then they offer it, I didn't technically ask, did I, I never demanded they tell me either.

If you had bothered to bring your concerns to the appropriate people, I would have happily explained to you that non combat skills cost half what combat skills do, and absolutely ANY cg could have a 5 in a non combat skill and a few other skills at 1 sprinkled about. The XP pool for CGs is EXACTLY THE SAME, and we use that SAME CG to make roster characters and NPCs. There was no sheet twinking, and I would have gladly explained that if you'd done anything other than bitch at that player on channel.

4,Personality Conflict- I really have a hard time buying that.... but okay... love that is an offense now... and is definitely something you can pin on me... so alright fair enough?... Words.. Every... word..

This is exactly why you are a personality conflict, btw. You don't like/approve of the way we want the game environment to be, and so you just nod through our attempts to explain it to you and go right back to what you were doing. What we have here is a failure to communicate. I'm not pinning that on anyone, but we called it what it was and freed both you and us up to move on.