Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.

Groth

@Misadventure said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

Assuming any given set of actions has at least one context where it is acceptable or better, who is responsible for making sure those contexts are clear? Who should be teaching these limiters? Is every human innately capable of walking these lines for everyone?

I'm sure we're all familiar with the expression 'It takes a village to raise a child' and what it comes down to is that it's everyone in the communities responsibility to teach what is and isn't appropriate behaviour. People will act in the ways which are condoned by the community they're participating in.

@ixokai said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.

And ignore it more when more things that made them uncomfortable happened. More pages, more comments, ignore. Ignore was how the someone expressed 'no' in this situation.

As @surreality points out. The option of talking with the person in question and explaining why their behaviour isn't ok goes a long way. There's no need to make any threats, those tend to be implicit. If the person still persists in the behaviour after being told it's not ok, then you have all the justification you need for removing them from your game.

Most of the time the 'creeper' isn't aware that their pages are being received so poorly, because noone ever talked to them about it and the conversation will make them chill out. In the cases they don't, it's easy enough to show them the door. There's no need to be particularly hard-ass about it either with talks about hammering or flattering. What's most successful in my experience is just telling them you believe it's better for both them and the game if they'd seek their luck elsewhere.

@mietze said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

I really don't think it is much of a stretch to expect that people ask before making sexual or physical contact with someone. Do you really need someone to say don't touch my tits to you every time you meet someone with tits in order to not do it? If you fuck someone on the first date does it give you the expectation that you will fuck everyone on your first date even if they did not give indications they wanted to, and kosher to blame it on "well I went on a date once and we fucked, so I just assumed I got to do that with everyone?" Gimme a break.

In my experience it's rather rare for verbal consent to be given for sexual or physical contact. Usually it's signalled through some form of body language to mixed success. You hold our your hand before a handshake, you hold your arms wide before a hug, you bow before a sparring bout etc.

There are however people arranging events where each and every physical contact has to be verbally consented to and it's kind of neat.
http://www.cuddleparty.com

Before you arrive

Arrive on time.
No drugs or alcohol, period.

After you get there

Pajamas stay on the whole time.
You don’t have to cuddle anyone you don’t want to.
Ask permission and get a verbal yes before touching anyone.
If you’re a yes to a request, say YES. If you’re a no, say NO.
If you’re a maybe, say NO.
You are encouraged to change your mind.
Respect your relationship agreements and communicate with your partner.
Come get the Cuddle Assistant or me if there is a concern, problem, or if you need assistance with ANYTHING.
Tears and laughter are both welcome.
Respect people’s privacy when sharing about Cuddle Parties.
Keep the cuddle space tidy.

Ganymede

@ixokai said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

I think Player A should be protected.

I think Player B crossed a line. BUT.

I don't think that line violated any of our rules as stated, and those rules aren't nitpicky lawyer-level details, ether.

I don't know quite how to resolve these two situations.

I concur with @WTFE that the absence of a direct complaint is irrelevant. My question is: what does Player A want staff to do? Have you had that discussion with her yet?

Arkandel

@Ganymede said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

I concur with @WTFE that the absence of a direct complaint is irrelevant. My question is: what does Player A want staff to do? Have you had that discussion with her yet?

As you know I usually err on the side of being cautious with staff involvement unless it's actually necessary.

In these cases I think staff involvement is necessary. The reason is simple: Player A might for any number of reasons not want to do something about it; for instance they might not want to look like the bad guy, or they're worried about OOC/IC consequences, or they decide to leave the MU* instead of dealing with it, or simply they think they can handle the creeper. But someone else might not.

The point is this though - if you, as staff, notice someone being a creep then you need to be proactive. Don't wait for a 'reason' or a report. Just act. It will save you a lot of headache in the long run and it will spare your game perfectly good players who'd otherwise leave without saying anything. Those aren't documented, they don't need to make dramatic posts detailing the reasons for their departure - they'll just stop logging on.

It's a true lose/lose situation. If you see it, act on it.

Ganymede

@Arkandel said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

As you know I usually err on the side of being cautious with staff involvement unless it's actually necessary.

That's why it's important to talk to Player A, the complainant. If you don't know what she's looking for, you cannot be sure of what is needed.

Arkandel

@Ganymede said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

@Arkandel said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

As you know I usually err on the side of being cautious with staff involvement unless it's actually necessary.

That's why it's important to talk to Player A, the complainant. If you don't know what she's looking for, you cannot be sure of what is needed.

Of course you should talk to the complainant (in fact, even if she's not complaining per se, it's actually pretty common for people to just mention this off the record without filing a grievance). But not for this purpose.

What matters here is if you, the game runner, feels the offending player should be on your game or not. If they are not then it's also up to you to take steps, regardless of the complaints you are perceiving; if he's being a creeper to that one player who happened to be on your radar it's quite likely he'll be pulling the same things to others who are not.

Ganymede

@Arkandel said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

Of course you should talk to the complainant (in fact, even if she's not complaining per se, it's actually pretty common for people to just mention this off the record without filing a grievance). But not for this purpose.

I don't recall stating only one purpose for talking to Player A.

Arkandel

@Ganymede said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

I don't recall stating only one purpose for talking to Player A.

That's what I got from your earlier post.

My question is: what does Player A want staff to do? Have you had that discussion with her yet?

If I'm mistaken it wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong. But I meant what Player A wants staff to do should in no way limit what staff actually does, as there may be a Player B, C or D who aren't talking to staff at all, but who are getting poached as well by the offending player.

Ganymede

@Arkandel said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

But I meant what Player A wants staff to do should in no way limit what staff actually does, as there may be a Player B, C or D who aren't talking to staff at all, but who are getting poached as well by the offending player.

Of course not; however, you can't even begin to formulate a plan on how to address the situation without starting with the complainant and respecting their wishes to some extent.

Arkandel

@Ganymede said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

But I meant what Player A wants staff to do should in no way limit what staff actually does, as there may be a Player B, C or D who aren't talking to staff at all, but who are getting poached as well by the offending player.

Of course not; however, you can't even begin to formulate a plan on how to address the situation without starting with the complainant and respecting their wishes to some extent.

I'll of course agree with the part about respecting their wishes 'to some extent'.

But as an example let's say I'm a creeper. I look at your super-hawt PB and start sending you flirty pages every time you log on (thank you, +watch) followed by quick nagging to play with me; and if are you playing with Loki... why? You said we'd play soon but it's been a day since we played last. Why are you in a bedroom? Lol, just kidding, hah-hah. But seriously, why are you in a bedroom?

So you tell me to fuck off. You might not even think much of it because you've handled creeps before and I didn't even register as something more than an inconvenience between poses. So yay you, you handled this one! And when you mention it to staff it's kinda in passing with a "eh, no big deal though, it's over now" disclaimer on it because to you it wasn't anything extreme.

Two things though:

To someone else it might be enough to ruin their fun completely, or leave the game, or be guilted into playing with me just to shut me up.
The only standards regarding "am I a creeper?" should be staff's. Else the creeper bar is all over the place depending on who they ask and their particular tolerances.

It's important to handle these incidents early, either way. Else they fester.

Thenomain

Late to the clam bake: Whomever said "talk first, make people aware

Meg

@Thenomain

Eagerly awaiting the ending. You have us all in suspense.

Arkandel

@Meg It's obvious he

Meg

@Arkandel

nope this doesn't bug me at all. not at all. i'm perfect fine with

Groth

@Arkandel said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

Two things though:

To someone else it might be enough to ruin their fun completely, or leave the game, or be guilted into playing with me just to shut me up.

The only standards regarding "am I a creeper?" should be staff's. Else the creeper bar is all over the place depending on who they ask and their particular tolerances.

It's important to handle these incidents early, either way. Else they fester.

The problem is that the cases where you have one obviously creepy person pestering other people that you can shut down are relatively rare.

The more common situation is that the people played together, one or both of them took things OOC and they didn't work out and now everything is a drama fest and if you simply kicked out everyone making inappropriate ooc contact you'd end up with a playerbase of about 5 people.

Arkandel

@Groth said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

The problem is that the cases where you have one obviously creepy person pestering other people that you can shut down are relatively rare.

The more common situation is that the people played together, one or both of them took things OOC and they didn't work out and now everything is a drama fest and if you simply kicked out everyone making inappropriate ooc contact you'd end up with a playerbase of about 5 people.

Not really. For starters I said nothing about kicking anyone out; what staff does depends on the severity of what happened. There is more than one way someone can be offensive. I am the last person here who'd suggest every problem must be dealt with the banhammer's fall.

What I am saying is that the standard for what constitutes an offense in the first place must be staff's, and that if a player violates that standard they need to take action on their own accord. No waiting for someone to file a formal complaint or to tell them what happened was too much - it's staff, not the potential victims (I don't like the term but it will do) who must determine just what 'too much' means.

So if someone took things too far, or if there was inappropriate OOC contact, then staff must absolutely get involved. Drama very, very rarely occurs because staff intervened early, it festers when they don't.

Groth

@Arkandel said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

@Groth said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

What I am saying is that the standard for what constitutes an offense in the first place must be staff's, and that if a player violates that standard they need to take action on their own accord. No waiting for someone to file a formal complaint or to tell them what happened was too much - it's staff, not the potential victims (I don't like the term but it will do) who must determine just what 'too much' means.

So if someone took things too far, or if there was inappropriate OOC contact, then staff must absolutely get involved. Drama very, very rarely occurs because staff intervened early, it festers when they don't.

I think that even thinking of these things in terms of 'offences' and 'formal complaints' is a trap. What you have is a certain standard of behaviour and OOC atmosphere you want to maintain, and if you detect behaviour that falls short of the standard or appears harmful to the atmosphere, you'll want to talk to the people involved to make sure they're aware that you want them to change their behaviour in ways beneficial to the game.

If a player is uncomfortable with anything about the game, the goal should be for them to be comfortable with making staff aware without that being considered any sort of formal action.

Seraphim73

@surreality said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

p creeper=We've received reports of unwanted sexual advances from you to another player. She was not comfortable addressing this directly with you, but we have received and reviewed her complaint. This behavior stops now. If it persists, you will be shown the door without ceremony.

This (pretty much exactly, although I'm pretty sure I used "The player" instead of "she") is exactly what I have done in the past. It has stopped (reported/observed) incidents of the behavior in the those cases. And if it doesn't stop the behavior, then the problem player has been told "no" already and can be hit with the banhammer while still staying explicitly within the policies of the game.

The reason I like to approach the problem player first? Exactly what @Groth brought up--they usually don't even know that they're being a creeper. Of course, if the conversation with them shows that they knew... yeah... banhammer.

Ganymede

@Arkandel said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

It's important to handle these incidents early, either way. Else they fester.

I get what you're saying, but your example is neither analogous nor particularly good.

First, the issue is how to address a complaint from Player A about Player B. In your example, I, as Player A, don't really make a complaint: I just mention it in passing.

Second, if people want to whack off to my PBs, that's fine. Rooney Mara has a fine scene with Daniel Craig, and Bryce Dallas Howard's been nailed on camera too. Not a problem, and I can help people find those bits online.

Third, presuming I told staff about it, then they should talk to me about it. The fact that I've shrugged it off should not compel staff not to take action, but were I traumatized and fearful that the person would find me in RL if I told anyone, then you'd probably want to carefully consider your strategy, as it may lead to RL ramifications. Like, let's say Player A is the frightened ex-partner of Player B, who has been stalking her from game to game.

We both agree that staff should take some sort of action. What I'm saying is that you need to talk to the complainant first and tailor your strategy on what's said. I'm pretty sure you don't disagree with that.

Finally, people do nag me for RP when I'm playing with Loki or others. It's always been an issue. Thankfully, no one has asked for a naked photo. I haven't quite found the right one.

Karmageddon

@Ganymede said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

Finally, people do nag me for RP when I'm playing with Loki or others. It's always been an issue. Thankfully, no one has asked for a naked photo. I haven't quite found the right one.

Here you go.

Ganymede

@ixokai said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

I don't think that line violated any of our rules as stated, and those rules aren't nitpicky lawyer-level details, ether.

An act does not need to violate a proscribed rule to be considered absolutely wrong.

That's why common law exists.

That's why equitable doctrines exist.

Go with protecting people from feeling uncomfortable. That's the better policy. How you go about doing that is up to you.