Eh. Think what you will.
The things you think are fun, I think they suck. We are generally incompatible as human beings.
I played a Mage... for five minutes. Until I got a faceful of Juerg and never logged the bit in again. I don't like Mage much either.
He's so MYSTERIOUS about who he played!
Jeremie. I learned a lot at HM, and made more than my share of mistakes. I'm actually more disappointed than proud of my time there.
And I made you burn down your fucking house, using a level two Cruac ritual.
Since posts were made after I started editing:
@Thenomain said:
You know, I have strayed from my original point. So, Tree o' Woe, what about Changeling ruins everything it touches? The more level-headed staffer in me does want to know.
It always feels like people that dislike mage usually don't understand it or dislike "that one type of mage player" which is a kind of player you find in EVERY sphere/game/insert some shit here.
The bulk of dislike for Mage has only a vague relationship with 'that one type of mage player', and everything to do with a few things:
There's others, but those three are a lot of why.
Pledges, in part. I don't like free candy, for various reasons. It encourages people to try and game the system. I think there's already been discussion about that. Something about a duration clause being free points. It basically allows a group of people with a Changeling or two to inflate their sheets without spending XP, and I think it's stupid.
Another part of it is thematic, or at least has to do with a common perception of theme: A big part of Changeling is snorting people's emotions like magic coke -- and the tendency for people to act as if this not only okay but that it is a good thing. Did you ever think of the implications of fucking with people's desires, sorrows, or anger? It's pretty barbaric. Put some Changeling sparkles on it, and that shit's A-OK, though?
Another part of what bugged me was how many people with emotional abuse issues completely missed the trick on this.
Part of it is my own tendency toward bitterness. Thinking back? Most of my bile is reserved for Liam's player. I never said I wasn't a hypocrite, or that I didn't hold grudges.
Ummmmmm... didn't you play in the sphere with two Disciplines that don't just influence mental/emotional states but actually FORCE someone to think/feel a specific way? How is it okay for Vampires to completely control a person's mental/emotional state but its not okay for Changeling's to influence them?
@The-Tree-of-Woe said:
Pledges, in part. I don't like free candy, for various reasons.
Eh, it's pretty minor free candy. Changeling's system is designed for very small advantages adding up. Played right, this is a risk, though, as the people you're getting free candy from create a bond, and that bond can be exploited. Mage players can get free candy, too, unless you call "having to roll and ignoring all other thematic aspects of the system" something other than free candy. It sure is cheaper than it should be.
Mage has more than its share of unfairly gaming the system, and as a hobby we have gotten used to the phrase, "the rules don't say I can't", when only half the game is about rules. You're preaching to the choir, but until everyone stops allowing it, everyone will keep doing it.
A big part of Changeling is snorting people's emotions like magic coke
I don't see how this pisses on anything. It takes away nothing from the other person. You don't even have to manipulate a thing to get your fix, you just have to experience it.
Did you ever think of the implications of fucking with people's desires, sorrows, or anger?
Every goddamn day I logged in, but I don't think you read the same book that I did. In Changeling, there is only one thematic abuse you must agree to, and that's the one that made you into a Changeling. You don't need to manipulate anyone else, or any more that we do to each other day to day just by being social creatures.
In Mage, you agree to lie to the world, every day, without remorse, and fight over scraps of political power behind the scenes. That's hubris. That's pretty fucking barbaric.
Another part of what bugged me was how many people with emotional abuse issues completely missed the trick on this.
It's not a trick. It's spelled out in black and white. It could be they (sub-)consciously don't want to admit to it, or it could be that it's just a game and they expect people with triggers to be self-aware enough to stand up and speak out about them.
Nah, just kidding. I expect people with triggers about things to be as adult as those who like to manipulate people over the same things.
Part of it is my own tendency toward bitterness. Thinking back? Most of my bile is reserved for Liam's player. I never said I wasn't a hypocrite, or that I didn't hold grudges.
Oh, well, Liam could be an utter prick, though I got along with him far better than I did the Lokis or the Spiders. I simply didn't trust anyone entirely first go.
@Miss-Demeanor said:
Ummmmmm... didn't you play in the sphere with two Disciplines that don't just influence mental/emotional states but actually FORCE someone to think/feel a specific way? How is it okay for Vampires to completely control a person's mental/emotional state but its not okay for Changeling's to influence them?
He did say that 1) he was different then and 2) wasn't proud of himself. I think that pretty much covers that.
A lot of people don't like the Child Abuse overtone that is the Durance, but I myself like that the game can be about overcoming this, if you want to acknowledge it at all. I don't think the game of Chagneling itself pisses on anyone who doesn't want to get involved, so all harm is self-inflicted.
interesting post-script: Back when my gaming group was still playing RPGs, one member refused to play (original) Mage because it pretty much said to him that God did not exist. I think we could have made some minor changes to make that work, but that was his objection, so we didn't play it.
See, I think not only do we have a bad habit forgetting that the other players we're dealing with are human beings, but sometimes we forget that we always have the ability of reminding them that we're human beings. We agree on a certain theme and setting and rules, but we agree as players, not as characters.
More to the point, did I SAY it was okay? I am familiar with the way Dominate and Majesty work.
I like vampire, but when I play it I try to know exactly what I'm playing and what they're capable of. Part of that is 'A blood-sucking horror capable of great evil'. But at the same time, that's only fun if the vampire I'm playing has a conscience. The moral decision is part of the game. So by all means, bring up the moral evil of using Dominate to hollow a person's mind out.
That choice -- need vs. conscience -- is a feature, not a bug.
If fucking with people's emotions to produce hittable glamour becomes a Clarity sin, that will largely silence my problem with Changeling, aside from Pledges being, as I said, free candy. Yes, they do give the changeling a measure of power over you, but if they're your Best Buddy Ever, that risk amounts to nothing.
@The-Tree-of-Woe said:
That choice -- need vs. conscience -- is a feature, not a bug.
... What? Changelings don't need to manipulate anyone to get their fix. It's a moral choice. It's no different, no different, than the choice to use Intimidation or Seduction to get your way. Changeling may get power points and someone's cell phone number as a bonus, but that is—as you say—a feature, not a bug.
I really think you don't know how Changeling works, nor have you made your case that Changeling is a bad game to have on a Mu*. The only case you've made is that someone touched you wrong, once, and they played a Changeling at the time. How we treat each other as players can be horrible. It can. It is, however, an entirely different issue.
I mean, hell, do Vampires (nWoD, not nWoD2) have to roll for a Humanity Sin whenever they use Dominate? Let me check.
...
Nope. They don't even need to do so just to feed, depending on how they feed. Changelings must be special in this because ...? I've got nothing.
Changeling as it is written and as the book encourages you to play it is in line with World of Darkness. I'm sorry that you're having emotional problems with this, but that's all you. The book doesn't hide this. If you want to harp on the book not being clear enough about its abusive theme, I gave it to you with the Child Abuse angle, but that's been hammered so many times so often and, again, you must opt in to this.
Have you considered either re-thinking your thoughts or, maybe, not posting as if you are making trusims? I know what you didn't say, by the way, but you didn't say some things pretty loud up there.
@The-Tree-of-Woe said:
I won't be sorry, Thenomain. Merely pained by how awful it will make everything it touches.
I advise, with all sincerity, that this one can be let go.
(edit: taking my own advice. i'm tagging out!)
@Thenomain said:
note: I will be coding Mage, or getting @Cobaltasaurus to help/do it herself,
Yessir.
@Thenomain said:
Except you,
Dart. Or D...something.
Dash. 
The cool
Mysteriummage from The Reach.
Silver Ladder.
You were awesome
And memorable apparently!
@The-Tree-of-Woe said:
Did you ever think of the implications of fucking with people's desires, sorrows, or anger? It's pretty barbaric. Put some Changeling sparkles on it, and that shit's A-OK, though?
Another part of what bugged me was how many people with emotional abuse issues completely missed the trick on this.
The Changeling seasonal courts are essentially four of the five stages of grief/loss. Spring is denial, Summer is anger, Autumn is bargaining (expressed through their focus on magic) and Winter is sorrow/depression. They just leave out acceptance from the seasonal cycle, but I have always figured that its actually equivalent to being courtless.
My first outing with changeling I really played through the whole idea that changelings were forged by this singular, horrible, transformative thing. It was interesting and made good RP, but I dunno... my second pass at it I went the other direction entirely and made a Dawn Courtier, who are pretty 'over it' by Changeling standards, and I loved the character. I don't feel like I missed anything from the lack of angst about what had happened to her. So I think you can go either way.
As to Eldritch and Changeling, first I wanna see what 2.0 looks like. But that being said, I think that a lot of the worst bits of any sphere tend to become noticeable and amplified when there's nothing to do except battle each other for crumbs. The most pitched of battles on MU*s tend to be fought over the pettiest shit. A setting and a theme and plot that people can interact with meaningfully, I hope, will solve a lot. That and the fact that we're focusing on integrated STing so its more likely that people will end up collaborating against external threats than hunting each other for sport.
I choose to trust Deviant.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?
-Mark Twain
@Silver said:
Replying with quote to re-post the giant picture because it is obnoxious.
Yes, @Coin is.
We're in the home stretch, character generation is as done as it's going to get for open, with massive thanks to @Arkandel for screwing up enough that I could find the parts I missed. (For the needy, I am developing the Eldritch House Rules character generation separately from by-the-book.)
I need to fix some screwiness with notes, put in Totem Aspirations, and some XP stuff that will be nice to have.
Oh yeah, and ... shift. Sigh. I may just dig up Darkwater's shift code and call it a day.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@Thenomain said:
Oh yeah, and ... shift. Sigh. I may just dig up Darkwater's shift code and call it a day.
I have it.
@Thenomain said:
We're in the home stretch, character generation is as done as it's going to get for open, with massive thanks to @Arkandel for screwing up enough that I could find the parts I missed.
I am the perfect screw-up.
For the love of GOD, posebreak please, Theno. It's not hard to install...
Eh. Think what you will.
The things you think are fun, I think they suck. We are generally incompatible as human beings.
I played a Mage... for five minutes. Until I got a faceful of Juerg and never logged the bit in again. I don't like Mage much either.
