UX: It's time for The Talk

[Ashen-Shugar]

@WTFE said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

No, seriously. Enjoy your DOS box. I won't begrudge you the joy that CONFIG.SYS so clearly brings to your life.

And this is the issue with a good number of people in the mudding world.

Some people like their DOS box. The issue is not converting someone to not use DOS box.

The issue is allowing them to use DOS box in addition to the new method you'd prefer them to use.

That way you have the new method for the new crowd, you pull in the old people with the old magic, and introduce them to the new magic.

Ignorance and unbending mentality works just as well for those who want a change as it does for those who do not.

Try not to fall into that pit.

[Derp]

@HelloProject said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

You have to turn "command echo" on in MUSHClient in order to enable your input history. Which means that every single thing you type creates this sort of "shadow" input right behind it. It makes no goddamned sense that you can't have input history without enabling that.

More to come on this post later, but for this part in particular... no you don't. Command history is accessible through... I forget the shortcut, but it is super basic. Either the up/down arrow keys or page up/down.

[SparklesTheClown]

@Derp

If you don't have command echo on, the up/down arrow keys don't do anything.

[Derp]

@HelloProject said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

If you don't have command echo on, the up/down arrow keys don't do anything.

Ok, so, I just fired up Mushclient again and tested this. The up/down keys work for command recall with or without command echo on.

Bro, like... I don't know what you've done to your poor MushClient, but at this point I would recommend a clean install. It's possessed. If the history commands don't work without channel echo on and it randomly starts doing backward typing type deals, it's possessed, and probably a witch. Burn it. If not for its soul, then for yours.

[RnMissionRun]

MUSHclient has a compatibility mode that remaps the history keys to Control-P and Control-N. Perhaps you have that option checked?

[Ganymede]

@HelloProject said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

But this is inherently the mindset of a seasoned MUer, like you said. From the outside looking in, this is a confusing mess.

I'm a seasoned MUer now. But when I started in 1996, I had to deal with PennMUSH, confusing documentation, the introduction of TinyMUX, and what I see as the same shit as before. It sure was confusing to begin with, but, like many things, if you give an honest effort and some time it becomes easy to decipher.

I don't like dealing with anecdotes and hypotheticals. Let me use two recent examples of dealing with new codebases: Evennia and Ares.

Arx uses Evennia. Coming to Arx was a somewhat difficult transition. But @Apos and @Kanye-Qwest were quick to come aboard, help me figure out basic commands, and get through the character generation process. My RP there was brief and preliminary, and I eventually stopped logging in because I couldn't get consistent RP during my busy times. It was a learning experience.

BSG:U uses Ares. I experienced little to no problem, largely due to my familiarity with TinyMUX and PennMUSH. Speaking of the latter, my first experience was RobotechMUSH. I had problems with some of the commands -- I was more used to TinyMUX, on which my first MUX was built -- so I soft-coded my own personal commands on my PC object. Staff helped me do this.

I actually came from MUDs to MUXs, way back when. I found MUD staff tremendously unhelpful, relative to the MUSH staff I later interacted with. I can probably say that, but for the help of staffers, I might not have stayed around. So, as a non-coder, this is I think where my disconnect is: you can improve UX immensely by having helpful staffers. Also, no matter how awesome your code is: your players will have a shitty UX if you don't have helpful staffers.

So, I'll say it again: I've never left a game -- even when I was a rookie MUSHER -- because of the code involved. If it's not my decision and fault, then my motivations have largely been due to staff and other players. Never the code.

[Groth]

@faraday said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

@Groth Yes, so by all means let's do nothing at all to make things as good as they can be given the limitations of the technology. I've said my peace. I'm out.

TinyMush and derivatives are just about as good they can be given their design constraints, technology and the willingness of people to get involved with the code.

However that technology is from the 1980's and 1990's. If you actually care about an improved user experience for those interested in text based RPGs, I think you really should focus on actually creating something that isn't reliant on a steaming pile of shit rather then bitching about the placement of the sesame seeds within that steaming pile of shit.

[ThatGuyThere]

@HelloProject
How is MUSHclinet logging not intuitive? You click on the log icon, which is shaped like a piece of paper and it logs the entire session in that world going back to the beginning of the buffer limit.
That doesn't require mastering the client it requires letting a cursor hover over an icon on a tool bar that is default visible for couple of second and reading. I will be the first to point of the flaws in MUSHclient but lack of easy logging is not one of them.

[Lithium]

After all this nonsense and back and forth and what rapidly turned into shit posting...

I get the feeling that some people seem to want a point and click choose your own adventure.

[SparklesTheClown]

@ThatGuyThere

We're legitimately at a point where we have so many tools that can just spit out a clean log by pressing one button. MUSHClient is capable of this, but it takes a lot of fiddling around that's far outside the bounds of most newbies. So yeah, while logging literally everything on your screen is intuitive, it's intuitive in the same way that turning up the heat on a frying pan as high as possible and then trying to cook vegetables is intuitive.

The vegetables certainly get cooked, but...

@Lithium said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

I get the feeling that some people seem to want a point and click choose your own adventure.

That seems like some massive hyperbole.

I don't really understand the hostility towards wanting to simplify something. To me it suggests at least a baseline level of defensive elitism that embraces the barrier to entry for new people into the hobby.

I'll be the first to say that "paying your dues" and learning how to deal with stuff that shouldn't be dealt with in the first place is bullshit. I've said repeatedly that not every game needs to be made with people new to the hobby in mind, because that's not really the intent of every single game.

To me it's a total copout when people are constantly going "No one cares about this hobby because of MMOs" (BS), and "No one cares about text based RPing anymore" (Monstrously BS and not even in the same universe as reality), but then get up in arms and defensive when someone says "Hey, maybe we should discuss some of the barriers to entry and complications that people might not think of as complications due to being used to them".

The constant defensiveness, emotional negativity, elitism, and generally treating MU code like a sacred cow, is unconstructive and I honestly am tired of seeing it in this thread.

I'm gonna be blunt, if people don't have anything constructive to say and nothing of actual value to contribute, then don't post.

If people wanna go "Fuck all these lazy millennial newbies" and "They just have to learn the incredibly unnecessary ropes because that's what I did, and that's just how things are, so stop worrying about it", then just go to the Hog Pit where they're all about pessimism and infinite stagnation.

Plenty of people have had constructive things to say in this thread, but I'm sick of all the condescending derailing from actual discussion.

Damned near everyone in this thread is older than me, it's unacceptable.

edit: Also, my MUSHClient might be terrible because I've copied over the same install to multiple hard drives and PCs for like a decade.

[Bobotron]

@HelloProject

clean log

Yeah, but what's the DEFINITION of a clean log? If you mean remove things like channels and OOC spam and such, you'd have to account for every different channel variant and every softcode prefix variant. Penn uses <> around theirs, MUX ues [], MUCK sometimes doesn't use anything like that. I don't do much software so I assume this could be a tick option in settings, but MUSHclient hasn't been in active development in a long time.

I think the only recent thing that's been in development, really, has been Potato? A new client housing all of these features would be nice, but there's so much division on the clients, just like on servers. Some people only use SiimpleMU*, some only MUSHclient, hell I know some people on the Penn dev site who use TinyFugue to connect.

Modernization isn't a bad thing. But getting multiple people on board for a 'one client to rule them all' situation is going to be tricky. Especially with many coders not even considering some other codebases like MUCK, MOO, various MUDlibs...

[Ganymede]

@Lithium said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

I get the feeling that some people seem to want a point and click choose your own adventure.

Some people do. I'm very serious when I say this. But they don't seem to stay long in the medium. We could try to cater to them to draw them in, but I wonder privately if it's worth the effort. And that's sort of the basis I'm coming from.

I don't object to simplification. This is a worthwhile goal, and I'll leave it to the coders to figure that out. From the non-coding end, I think it's more effective to provide support to staff and players who want to make everyone's UX enjoyable to the best of their ability.

[SparklesTheClown]

@Bobotron

You're never going to get everyone on board for one client to rule everything, with the exception of Facebook becoming the normie kingdom.

And there have already been projects, typically projects that stay within particular games because they're not on MSB and such, that spit out clean logs in numerous ways.

Also, I'm not suggesting that MUSHClient be updated, what I asked earlier was why you don't see many new clients, though I acknowledge the existence of Potato, and the fact that Atlantis exists which I kind of considered not existing because it's a Mac client, but I guess not acknowledging the existence of a Mac client is a bit unfair since some people do use Apple stuff for one reason or another (I have an iPhone that I fucking hate because my mother somehow acquired two of them).

Either way, I don't think it's a massive endeavour to filter out spam, unless you have to manually do it yourself which is a pain in the ass. Checkboxes are a great idea. And in making such a client, you could just update it with new channels you may have missed, that people suggest.

[Lithium]

@HelloProject said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

@Lithium said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

I get the feeling that some people seem to want a point and click choose your own adventure.

That seems like some massive hyperbole.

I don't really understand the hostility towards wanting to simplify something. To me it suggests at least a baseline level of defensive elitism that embraces the barrier to entry for new people into the hobby.

The whole point of the genre is to write. It's to role-play. It's to create a shared collaboration.

This will necessitate writing. It means typing. The only other way around this currently is to have voice command interface in which case people will just talk to the computer.

Simple fact: Games in this genre have commands that will need to be input via text. You can either code to allow for the system and freedom to do anything. Or you can 'simplify' it to the point it's on rails and loses the flexibility of the genre.

This 'simplification' would require one of two things. 1) A universal base code that is adopted by all that has the same code functionality on every game (Which is simply impossible due to the wide variety of systems in use for various games). 2) A point and click interface that turns the game into a point and click choose your own adventure.

That's not hyperbole. It's not exaggerated. That's what this whole 'UX' thing you're trying to promote is about.

There will /always/ be unique code required for each game until one of those two things happens.

There will /always/ be a command line interface until voice command interface is universally adopted (Probably even then).

You're confusing hostility with statements of truth. That's on /you/.

I've not been hostile at all, I've been explanatory as to /why/ things work the way they do as a coder and in this genre.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're hostile.

(Edit: Or having some sort of defensive elitism. Yet another time you're trying to provoke hostility with your word choice.)
(Edit 2: Just.. ROFL at all the rest. You don't get to tell people who can and cannot post. Especially because of our 'Age'.)

[SparklesTheClown]

@Lithium

When I've repeatedly said that not every game needs to have a focus on being as accessible as possible to people who are new to the hobby, and you ignore that I've said that multiple times in the thread to instead say "The entire hobby can't be universally simplified", that is pretty hostile and also a straw argument.

Saying I'm trying to provoke hostility by pointing out something that's happened repeatedly in this thread (defensive elitism) is deflecting from the fact that people literally keep doing it, and do it pretty often even outside of this discussion.

I don't have the power to stop anyone from posting, nor did I say that anyone should stop posting because of their age.

The fact that you're intentionally creating straw arguments and twisting my words around is, to me, hostile.

You're making incredibly condescending arguments that entirely ignores the spirit of what people are talking about, and what multiple people have literally said they themselves have addressed in this very thread. Saying that something is impossible when other coders have said they've addressed it is basically saying "You know what, I'm going to be super elitist about this and explain how something is impossible because fuck all these potential noobs entering the hobby".

I can also make straw arguments.

I'm putting you on ignore for a week because you aren't being constructive. I hope that in a week's time you learn from this.

edit: Someone remind me to take Lithium off ignore next Sunday.

[Lithium]

@HelloProject said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

I'm gonna be blunt, if people don't have anything constructive to say and nothing of actual value to contribute, then don't post.

If people wanna go "Fuck all these lazy millennial newbies" and "They just have to learn the incredibly unnecessary ropes because that's what I did, and that's just how things are, so stop worrying about it", then just go to the Hog Pit where they're all about pessimism and infinite stagnation.

Plenty of people have had constructive things to say in this thread, but I'm sick of all the condescending derailing from actual discussion.

*** Damned near everyone in this thread is older than me, it's unacceptable.***

Emphasis mine. For posterity.

Disagreement is not hostility.

Discussions about reality are not hostility.

Explaining /why/ something works the way it does /is/ constructive, because it identifies issues.

My hope is that one day you'll be able to differentiate actual hostility from discussion.

P.S. If you actually ignored me, and if you actually read this in a week, it sounds like a large part of your beef is with mushclient, and your abuse of it with so many installs over the top of it.

[Groth]

@Lithium

I disagree with the idea that CLI is necessary. If I were to make a text RPG interface from scratch I'd make it web/json based with a rich text editor, graphical map, form based chargen etc

Just like roll20 you might still have some cli commands for advanced features but most players shouldn't need them often

[Lithium]

@Groth There is still a text based interface in roll20. Not everyone can (or is able) to do voice chat. There is still a need for text. Especially when dealing with a text based medium like a MU* is.

What you're talking about, is not the same hobby as this, it's a different genre because the text... is important. I can immerse myself more fully into a game when I can play any gender I want to.

If it's voice? No. I'm not dealing with people fixating on me just because of my gender in this hobby as well as others that I already do.

[Thenomain]

@Lithium

He said "for the more advanced features". For instance, working with a grid map in a text-only environment is a pain in the tush. I doubt anyone here wants to stop using text for the storytelling.

[Lithium]

@Thenomain That is completely fair. But he did say he didn't feel that a CLI is necessary. It is necessary for text unless you want to point and click at words like some sort of autocorrect texting window.