The Hockey Thread

ThatGuyThere

@Monogram Well if you don't want a local team and of the three that used to be local Detroit was your best option, but bleh Detroit, then you should clearly be a Tampa Bay Lightning fan, since Stevie Y was the best part of the Red Wings and is now the TBL GM.

As someone who has hated the Wings for as long as I can remember, I do have to grudgingly agree with this, Steve Yzerman is and always has been awesome.

Ganymede

@ThatGuyThere said in The Hockey Thread:

As someone who has hated the Wings for as long as I can remember, I do have to grudgingly agree with this, Steve Yzerman is and always has been awesome.

Last time I checked, Stevie Y has won precisely zero Cups with the Bolts.

ThatGuyThere

Lack of cups does not equate to a lack of awesomeness.
After all if you had to have a Cup to be awesome wouldn't that counter a lot of your Ovie case earlier?
In a team sport lack of championships does not mean a whole lot to me concerning individuals, best example is not from hockey but from football Dan Marino never won a Superbowl, Trent Dilfer did but there should be little question on who was the better QB.

Ganymede

@ThatGuyThere said in The Hockey Thread:

Lack of cups does not equate to a lack of awesomeness.

Lack of Cups as a GM does suggest a lack of awesomeness when it comes to being a GM. We're talking about Stevie Y the GM, not Stevie Y the player.

That said, he's still a pretty good GM.

ThatGuyThere

@Ganymede
No cups in general would be a point against the GM I agree in this particular case I do not.
The three years before he got the job they missed the playoffs and in the seven years he has been on the job they have three appearances in the conference finals and one in the finals, each of those three years they lost to the eventual champions. Overall play off series record 7-4.
I don't see that as a bad record to point to, now if he never manages a Cup win as a GM that would be knock given his position or if after missing the playoffs this last season they continue to do so it is likely time for a change.
I don't think he is the best GM but he I would consider him better than most.

Darinelle

I don't know that I care though. I mean, yes I want us to win the Cup. It's a great high, it's a fantastic thing. Tampa Bay's a weird place though, man. We've had the Bucs for so damn long I'm not sure we know what to do with a super winning team. We get extra hockey most years now, in the form of playoff games. The Bolts continue to do what the Bolts do best - put butts in seats, give an entertaining game, and show their love to the community.

I guess I judge whether he's an awesome GM like this - is our dream alive every season? Yeah. Does he pick players who love the game and are great members of the community? Yeah. Is it fun to watch and follow along with? Yeah.

That's what I want. It's why I stopped watching most other sportsball - I want the accessibility, the relatability, the love of the game and the dream. I want the team, not a couple of outstanding players who drag the rest along. Whether or not they win all sorts of Stanley Cups and whether or not they create a dynasty is really irrelevant to me. Keep coming up with a good team full of awesome people I want to watch? I'm so there.

Ganymede

@ThatGuyThere said in The Hockey Thread:

No cups in general would be a point against the GM I agree in this particular case I do not.

We're talking about awesomeness, not about mere goodness.

By your logic, Dean Lombardi is an awesome GM. Two Cups (2012, 2014), two conferences titles, six playoff appearances in 11 years. But the LA Kings have known only inconsistency in this time. I'd hardly call him an awesome GM.

What about Mike Gillis? 1 Conference title, 5 division titles, 5 playoff appearances in 6 seasons. Pretty darn good, until you realize he managed the Canucks after Dave Nonis, and is pretty much responsible for the basement status they are in right now.

Let's not forget our good friend George McPhee, most recently of the Capitals (he's now with the VGK). 1 conference title; 7 division titles; 10 playoff appearances in 17 seasons.

You want awesome GMs? Ken Holland, Red Wings. Sure, they missed the playoffs this year, but 20 straight seasons under his eyes in the playoffs? Legendary. Along with 3 Cups.

Lou Lamariello, when he was with the Devils: 5 conference finals; 9 division titles; 21 playoff appearances; and 3 Cups. Right now, he's putting together the Leafs for a long tenure, and seems to be doing a damned good job at it (although, $6.25M for zombie Marleau? Not so sure of that, but the man holds every damned offensive record for the Sharks).

And, of course, Stan Bowman, Blackhawks. 8 seasons, 8 playoff appearances, 3 Cups. Enough said.

Stevie Y isn't in the conversation with the latter 3. With the former 3, he has a similar record. His team isn't a consistent threat. He's also made questionable choices:

He traded Bishop for a 4th round pick. The Stars now have him. Bishop was instrumental in that Stanley Cup Final you were talking about. Now, they have to rely on Vasilevskiy, whose record was good enough last year to keep the Lightning away from good draft picks, but not good enough to get into a weak Eastern Conference.
The team's scoring forwards lack depth. Kunitz isn't going to help you score points, even if he has a lot of experience.
The team handled the Drouin issue poorly in the 2016 season. Thankfully, they handled it better this off-season, picking up Sergachev. Otherwise, Stevie Y's first-round picks have been up-and-down (where's Connolly, DeAngelo, and Howden?).

So, no. I put Stevie Y in the "he's pretty good" category. Not awesome, but not Burke infamous.

ThatGuyThere

I think it comes down to how do you define awesomeness, in a league with 31 teams, I would put him in the top 6 GMs, Yes below Holland, Lamariello, and Bowman who would be my pick for top GM currently and Top Coach ever. So he is better than 4/5 of those in his position.
I have no problem using awesome to describe someone who is in the top 20 percent of his field. (Granted this discounts hockey GMs of non-NHL leagues, but I follow none of the minor nor the Euro leagues enough to even begin to form opinion on them.)

Aria

@Darinelle said in The Hockey Thread:

I don't know that I care though. I mean, yes I want us to win the Cup. It's a great high, it's a fantastic thing. Tampa Bay's a weird place though, man. We've had the Bucs for so damn long I'm not sure we know what to do with a super winning team. We get extra hockey most years now, in the form of playoff games. The Bolts continue to do what the Bolts do best - put butts in seats, give an entertaining game, and show their love to the community.

I guess I judge whether he's an awesome GM like this - is our dream alive every season? Yeah. Does he pick players who love the game and are great members of the community? Yeah. Is it fun to watch and follow along with? Yeah.

That's what I want. It's why I stopped watching most other sportsball - I want the accessibility, the relatability, the love of the game and the dream. I want the team, not a couple of outstanding players who drag the rest along. Whether or not they win all sorts of Stanley Cups and whether or not they create a dynasty is really irrelevant to me. Keep coming up with a good team full of awesome people I want to watch? I'm so there.

This is why I was super bummed when the Flyers traded Hartnell. Regardless of what his stats looked like at the time, he was very approachable and active in a lot of community drives and events in and around Philadelphia, as was his wife. He was great to the fans, fun to watch, and hilarious in interviews on local stations. He was much beloved off the ice, to the point I still see people walking around in his number.

Ganymede

@ThatGuyThere said in The Hockey Thread:

I think it comes down to how do you define awesomeness, in a league with 31 teams, I would put him in the top 6 GMs, Yes below Holland, Lamariello, and Bowman who would be my pick for top GM currently and Top Coach ever. So he is better than 4/5 of those in his position.

Just as a reminder, Stan Bowman is not Scotty Bowman. You're thinking of Scotty, his father, who was a legendary coach, if not GM (he only spent 3 years as Red Wings GM, I think).

If Holland, Lamariello, and Stan Bowman are in the top six, then so is David Poile (Predators), Dave Tallon (Blackhawks/Panthers), and Doug Wilson (Sharks). I might even put Peter Chiarelli up there (Bruins/Oilers).

I'm not saying Stevie Y ain't good, but he ain't brilliant for the reasons stated above.

ThatGuyThere

Yeah I did get my Bowman's mixed up there.
I see Bowman and automatically think Scotty.

Ganymede

@Lotherio

Secondary to this, Ice Guardians (documentary about enforcers) is on Netflix now, just saying. Getting word out there as far as skilled veterans go ... early on there is props in comparison between Gretzy and Crosby, noting with a good enforcer how many less concussions would Crosby had suffered (or how better he would be) to date. Maybe with Reaves, Crosby will play a full season this year.

Neither Dave Semenko nor Marty McSorley prevented Gary Suter from running Gretzky into the boards from behind, starting what became a long history of back problems for the Great One.

Sidney Crosby's first concussion comes from a hit by David Steckel. The video shows (to me) that Steckel tried to avoid him, but ended up running into Crosby's noggin. No penalty called. And then, later that year, Victor Hedman hit Crosby from behind against the boards, but in the numbers. Crosby left and never returned that season. Neither Steckel nor Hedman are known for being dirty players.

The theory that enforcers will serve as deterrents to dirty players is sort of like saying that having a handgun will deter a person from shooting you from behind: the dirty player has already made up their mind to hurt you, and will not be deterred if your enforcer isn't sitting next to you or he doesn't care what the consequences are.

Lotherio

@ganymede

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition, or could predict when Bryan Marchment might want to collapse one of your lungs.

I'm indifferent, but props to the reference to Crosby being good without enforcers (or the potential to maybe be better with one) and compared to the era of goon squads. Pens have a hitter this year though, with some PIM on the ledgers (just under 10 minutes a game in the box). I lean towards the showmanship of fights post goons days lends to distracting from the game and slows down play time, could stand to still see less.

Ganymede

@lotherio said in The Hockey Thread:

I lean towards the showmanship of fights post goons days lends to distracting from the game and slows down play time, could stand to still see less.

I like the honor of the fight. When Malkin took a borderline shot against Wheeler, he knew he was in for a fight the next time the Pens played the Jets. So, early in the game, they did it, with Wheeler creaming Malkin badly. In response, Malkin said (paraphrasing): "I knew it wasn't a great hit. I respect Wheeler, so I was ready. Wasn't my greatest fight, couple of punches, I lost."

What I don't like is star players doing dirty things because they think they can get away with it. Did you see Crosby ice-stomping PK Subban? That was very dangerous: you don't use a prone player's helmet to grind his head into the ice. And then, when PK got him in a headlock (presumably to deliver a DDT), Crosby went limp-bitch.

I have zero sympathy for Crosby's concussions now. From what I've watched, the kid is a competitor -- but one that will gladly do something dirty behind the net or when the ref isn't looking. Having an enforcer around means he may get away with more of that dirty crap.

Ghost

For these reasons I am very happy that Todd Bertuzzi is now retired. He should have never had his indefinite suspension lifted.

Lotherio

@ganymede said in The Hockey Thread:

Did you see Crosby ice-stomping PK Subban?

Not PK Subban (I'd almost switch to a Preds fan for Subban), but a few other players out there, I'd be more lenient of this activity ...

Ganymede

@lotherio

Maybe, but ice-stomping is really, really dangerous, as is grabbing someone by the helmet.

Lotherio

@ganymede said in The Hockey Thread:

@lotherio

Maybe, but ice-stomping is really, really dangerous, as is grabbing someone by the helmet.

My really bad sense of humor and sarcasm wasn't turned on properly. Ice stomping literally makes me cringe, just from all the accidental blade cuts seen over the years.

Ghost

@Ganymede Who has two thumbs and has been right so far about the Arizona Coyotes?

Ghost

Team Transactions

Oct 11
Recalled F Emerson Etem from Tucson (AHL).
Oct 10
Assigned C Dylan Strome to Tucson (AHL). Recalled F Mario Kempe from Tucson.
Oct 5
Named Tom Hoof vice president of marketing.
Oct 4
Assigned F Mario Kempe and G Marek Langhamer to Tucson (AHL).
Oct 1
Assigned D Dakota Mermis to Tucson (AHL).

Rumor has it Duclair might be heading to Tucson soon.