FCs on Comic MUs

[ixokai]

@kanye-qwest said in FCs on Comic MUs:

@tnp said in FCs on Comic MUs:

@tempest Keep in mind it's 1964. There's no tolerance for gays. In fact, the word's not really in use yet. Homosexuals are considered deviant by most of the government, the country, and the world.

And this baffles me as a game choice and is the reason I would never play this game, much as I love superhero comics and hero/villain rp in general.

I note he speaks of the NPC world. There's no policy of rawr-*phobia/*ism. Between PC's, especially powered PC's, its almost irrelevant. The only way it really impacts play is people who play gay/bi characters is they don't make out in public.

The PC's are like he vanguard of a changing world.

@ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

Remember when I said we wouldn't tolerate anyone being a jerk to someone for playing a FC wrong?
The thing is that's never happened

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I think it's far more likely you just haven't heard about it.

Game's not that big.

@lithium said in FCs on Comic MUs:

@kanye-qwest I kind of agree, the whole idea of 1963/1964 is that the world is supposed to be moving forwards at that time, and yet there is a clear policy of zero tolerance. Marvel was not that intolerant, it pushed it's intolerance onto a fictional type of being (mutants) in order to represent intolerance and the injustice of it. To actively promote an intolerant attitude and pick a timeline where Tolerance was a thing...

I'm not at all clear what you're saying here.

"Clear policy of zero tolerance"?

"pick a timeline where Tolerance was a thing"?

[saosmash]

I really disagree that the only impact those thematic elements would have on those characters is "not making out in public". Identity is a complex and dense issue and even in our relatively more "enlightened time" playing characters with non straight sexualities and gender identities is playing characters shaped by the systemic oppression of their environment.

Like I said ymmv but I do think that if that's the only impact of your thematic universe on your pcs, that would be a different but other reason the game is not for me.

[Tempest]

IDK, logging on there, and getting "remember women are supposed to be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant, your weird doctor lady will be abnormal" from a staff member, was just kind of eyeroll inducing. Like not the worst thing ever, but idk, it bugged me.

Mmm yes. It's the 60s, and I'm not retarded, I'm aware there was a bit of sexism back in the day.

Staff's apparent focus on the 'anti-gay/anti-women' elements of the timeframe seems kind of....strange.

Like there's nothing particularly interesting about the 60s that I'm aware of. There is no other 'key element' to those years that the game seems to draw from? Like if it was set during WWII or 'the roaring 20s' or something, that'd be one thing.

I really think @saosmash has a point. There's nothing of note about that timeframe, except the intolerance that is specifically aimed towards women, minorities, and gays. And it feels weird.

Not to say it's the worst game ever or anything. I don't know anywhere near enough to be criticizing anything about it. It just seems to be an odd cup of tea.

[Thenomain]

So is this a discussion on themes and settings that should not be attempted in games, or themes and settings that the posters personally have no interest in? Because let me tell you, I never understood the attraction of Firan.

[Tempest]

@thenomain This is a discussion. Don't try to put us in a box!

[Lithium]

@ixokai Sexism and intolerance is a thing even today. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves or perhaps so privileged they don't see it.

The thing for me is that RP and Games are meant to be an escape from reality, and it seems an odd point to try and enforce for gaming pleasure.

Or maybe it's just not directed towards me, and that is completely fine, but it strikes me as a bit odd where you claim that sexuality doesn't matter for even FC's on your game, but then you put forth that intolerance about sexuality and sex is a big thing on your game.

Paradoxical.

[Thenomain]

@tempest

Okay.

The civil rights movement was in full swing during 1963-64 and dear god 1965. The Beatles' first album, JFK's assassination, the nation was changing in ways that both allow what's going on today and informs the argument against it. You might even call the mid-60s a more violent reflection of the late 2000s.

I wouldn't want to play it either, but because I don't like the flights-and-tights genre for it's-basically-a-soap-opera reasons. Reminding people that their characters are probably deviants is the kind of theme-enforcement that is critical for a good game. It could also be done so ham-handedly that it's a drawback, but not doing so at all is, I believe, a disservice to the act of running a game.

[Lotherio]

@tempest said in FCs on Comic MUs:

I really think @saosmash has a point. There's nothing of note about that timeframe, except the intolerance that is specifically aimed towards women, minorities, and gays. And it feels weird.

Nothing of note in the timeframe, or nothing of note on theme timeframe for the game?

Because there is tons of things happening in the 60s worth exploring and developing personally from a characters standpoint, from dramatic social changes to the middle class riot (clue less rebels, motorcycle clubs), to those very groups (gender/race/etc) working to establish more rights on the homefront, to the crazy politics following WWII and then the Korean War, and getting into Vietnam. Music revolutions reflective of the changing times. Its a time when the concept of war and how it was fought was changed to the point its not the classic idea of war and resources. For powered folks, I'd imagine all the shifty world politics and plays are where staff and such aim plots.

I've a weird concept that just normal drama surrounding like some motorcycle clubs in a cafe racer type environment could be interesting. With clashes between like motorcycle club, police, beatniks and socialists, and just old home good kids from the 50s (why we gotta be different, lets just be 'normal') could be interesting. But, that me.

[surreality]

Most historical periods are going to involve elents of sexism, racism, and/or homophobia.

Including this one, currently, today.

I have to squint a little at the implication that choosing a historical setting — or even a harshly intolerant modern one — means the game creators somehow personally want more sexism, racism, and homophobia as essential elements of their pretendy fun times, or they’d either rewrite history as something it wasn’t, or choose some other era. This implication seems to surface a fair bit and I think it’s really pushing it on the ‘thought crime’ front in a way that’s typically one hell of a stretch.

One of the over-arching themes in Marvel re: mutants has always been ‘fear of the other’ as a proxy for racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. That an era when these subjects were coming strongly to the fore is not at all surprising as a setting choice, even if it’s not an era I’m interested in myself.

[TNP]

@Tempest You are aware. Not everyone is. I can think of one person wanting to be a female news reporter at the age of 20something. We've also had apps referencing computers as if they were common so we like to make sure, from the start, that the setting is taken into account.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@tnp said in FCs on Comic MUs:

I can think of one person wanting to be a female news reporter at the age of 20something.

Do you mean TV? Otherwise I'm not seeing the problem.

[Lithium]

@surreality I wasn't suggesting that they wanted more intolerance, sexism, or anything like that. Just was commenting on the paradoxical nature of his statements and the way things are presented. As @Tempest said, first thing she got on the game was 'Women are supposed to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, your lady scientist will be odd' or something to the sort.

It presents a different sort of mood than what @ixokai was saying. That's where my paradoxical comment came from.

I'm /definitely/ not saying Theme shouldn't be enforced, at all, one of my favorite original themes ever was heavily based on the Roman Empire in ways (Aether, I still miss you), adhering to theme is important.

There are a lot of reasons the 60's could be interesting, the civil rights movement, for sure, the change in society away from the red scare 50's days, etc.

I'm also glad that @ixokai said the PC's aren't expected to be racist/sexist, because they are heroes, which is good. Actually makes the game more interesting to me, though that wars with other things.

[Kanye Qwest]

Not sure how "This setting doesn't appeal to me" mutated into "you shouldn't enforce your setting". Straw men!

[ixokai]

@tempest said in FCs on Comic MUs:

Staff's apparent focus on the 'anti-gay/anti-women' elements of the timeframe seems kind of....strange.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

There's all kinds of -isms. Staff isn't focused on any particular one or two. Staff has never said the game is anti-women or are "focused" on that. The civil rights act was just enacted; there's a lot of racism, too.

Its just a realization that the PC's are exceptional when they overcome the biases of the time. Emma Frost is a CEO. But that's exceptional.

As for why the game is set when it is-- X-Men: First Class.

@lithium said in FCs on Comic MUs:

@ixokai Sexism and intolerance is a thing even today. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves or perhaps so privileged they don't see it.

I... know?

The thing for me is that RP and Games are meant to be an escape from reality, and it seems an odd point to try and enforce for gaming pleasure.

No one's enforcing sexism or racism. Just saying when apping: take into account the time. But PC's are PC's and special.

Or maybe it's just not directed towards me, and that is completely fine, but it strikes me as a bit odd where you claim that sexuality doesn't matter for even FC's on your game, but then you put forth that intolerance about sexuality and sex is a big thing on your game.

I never put forth that "intolerance about sexuality" is a "big thing".

It just happens in the background. Like-- the only "gay" clubs are mafia-run and still they get raided from time to time. Do we eye people in a gay club and go NPC a police action? No... do we poke people and say, hey, get gaybashed! No...

Its just the the texture of the background. Most RP doesn't involve -isms or -phobias because most PC's are supers, and once you're a mutant or an alien or someone who turns into a giant green rage machine,... stones and glass houses. That and most people are OOCly not wanting to play -ists.

@Lithium Its not that 'women are supposed to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen', that's a dramatic overstatement. But that women in certain professional fields would face challenges men wouldn't. Look at the Hidden Figures movie. The men are shocked! shocked! That women not only work at NASA but meaningfully contribute in more then secretarial roles. That's the background in which PC's find themselves: if someone wants to play a woman character in a role that doesn't traditionally have women, they're allowed to. The app should just be written such as to acknowledge this.

[Thenomain]

Not sure how answering “don’t box me in; this is a discussion” turned into “straw man”.

Well, I do, but it’s no less silly for knowing it.

[Kanye Qwest]

@thenomain I didn't say anything about boxing, that was tempest.

[Thenomain]

@kanye-qwest

I know that. Sorry; without quoting or directly linking to what you replied to, I just assumed it was about me (having gone into enforcing the setting). If not, my bad.

[Kanye Qwest]

Eh it was pointless anyway to call out an argument fallacy when I was just stating a negative opinion. Best stated and dropped, so no worries.

[Arkandel]

Am I the only person here who thinks that in the context of a game like this, being a goddamn dirty mutie overrides pretty much anything regarding their sexual orientation, race, etc?

They are already freaking out about you existing at all, you abomination. They fear and hate you. What more can they do if you're also fucking the wrong gender?

[Lotherio]

@arkandel said in FCs on Comic MUs:

Am I the only person here who thinks that in the context of a game like this, being a goddamn dirty mutie overrides pretty much anything regarding their sexual orientation, race, etc?

They are already freaking out about you existing at all, you abomination. They fear and hate you. What more can they do if you're also fucking the wrong gender?

Do I upvote if I agree, or if I think you're the only person thinking that.

I agree. Bigger fish to fry, dang muties. I'm going to say a bad word about this, 'guts!'.