Armageddon MUD
-
@alexrocker The point isn't whether or not this is still a problem on your game. All I was saying is that what you were identifying as people's objection in this thread was inaccurate. People responded with their experiences, which yeah, may have been a few years ago, others responded saying, yeah that doesn't sound great, I wouldn't want to be punished IC for an OOC slip, and then the offending FEE FEES phrasing was brought out as if not wanting to be punished IC for an OOC slip was just a bunch of people being wildly oversensitive. Which the OP has already apologized for in terms of phrasing. But I wrote to clarify, because your response seemed really inaccurate in terms of why people were expressing concerns.
-
I understand the theme of these forums and I know that most people here wouldn’t be interested in a game like Armageddon. It’s not against the rules to advertise a Mud here. So I posted not for the “How dare you post a Mud here! This is our forum!” people, I posted for the people that might say “Hm...that could be interesting.” I know it’s not an easy game to play and that might not appeal to everybody that visits. But it might appeal to some.
My intention wasn’t to marginalize people that have had something they didn’t like happen to their characters either. My intention was simply to say if you do make an ooc mistake, it IS ok to say “I didn’t know I wasn’t supposed to say that”. You are able to say I made a mistake and people would take that at face value that you DID make a mistake. I see people do that all the time now. That seems to be a big concern and understandably so. If you don’t know something you can ask while you’re playing. If you’re curious about something in the world or a command you can ask that too.
What I was trying to get across is: Some people won’t break character to show you the right thing to do or say. That’s one of the essentials of good story telling right? Show don’t tell. I know it can feel like it’s a personal affront to you the player, but most people aren’t doing it to make you feel bad or silly or haze newbies. Give it a chance because it might lead you somewhere good.
The Templar you pissed off by not paying the respect you were supposed to show, could lead you into a plot against the same Templar. So your newbie mistake pulled you into an active plot. So try not to say, “I’m new, I didn’t know...” go with it and see where it takes you.
-
You shouldn't put stock in what ThugHeaven is saying, it's a bunch of flimflam.
He's a staff boot kisser and a karma farmer from their discord and gets away with discussing things there that would get someone else banned. The same thing happens on the GDB - he trolls, baits, snubs and belittles people there, but the administration turns a blind eye. They're quick to punish people for dishing it back at him, though.
The game is fun enough if you keep under the radar, but the moment you say the wrong thing in a request, or on the forums, or upset one of the preppy staff fan crew in their discord - and you will upset someone the second you break from the hive mind of endless staff praise - you're on the shitlist and you will never get off it.
You'll get karma blacklisted, staff will reject special requests for inane reasons (you used the wrong adjective in this description, resubmit please, etc.), block you from sponsored roles and the game world WILL suddenly start "coming to life" to "better reflect the harsh realities of Zalanthas", usually in the form of them animating God-like NPCs to kick your PC around, or otherwise make sure you're on the losing end of things.
Because of this long-standing behavior that has existed for at least the last 10~ years (they now hide EVERYTHING behind the request system, refuse to discuss anything they do with anyone and ban/censor the forums when people go public with abuses, so it looks "better than it used to be"), most players with any time under their belt will throw you under the bus the moment one of these animations happen. This is both because people who back up shunned players become shunned players themselves (people who supported redranger and other old school vets who left the game due to staff abuses, sexual harassment and other such behavior have been banned, or otherwise punished with karma removal, character storage or other petty punishments) and because mindlessly supporting staff is the fastest track to karma.
Karma is the measure that decides how powerful your character can become - skill increases out of chargen, magic, mastercrafting subs (to make custom items for people) and advanced subs (VASTLY superior subguilds that give game-changing skill gains; your ranger can become a ranger burglar with one subguild, making you basically capable of doing everything with decent proficiency), all of which are huge factors in who eats and who gets eaten. Karma = staff favor = who wins, who loses.
Or to use their "trust" line, it's a measure of how much staff trusts you... to lay back, think of England, and let it happen.
I played the game for over ten years and my refusal to continue running leadership roles back to back (due to no support for my own plot ideas, constant staff ultimatums ex; do this this way or you're stored, constant nitpicking about how I handled their plot directives, etc) caused me to be talked down to more and more, followed by karma removal, followed by accusations of "meta-conspiracy" against the staff, whatever that even means.
They're desperate for people who can lead clans, run plots and do so consistently, but they abuse, punish and bully those same people the second they stop enabling staff meddling. Staff like Sedhir are a good example of staff who use IC/OOC methods to meddle, to get the PCs and players he favors on the winning track and the others on the losing track. He's also getting to be well-known for his sexual/emotional attachment to a certain female player, who basically leads the game around with her sexual antics.
You can see him on the forums, talking about how he doesn't get to spend time with his wife because of all the time he spends working on the game, while he's mud-stalking some player with jealous abandon. It's nuts. Literally.
This game is toxic, unfriendly and highly punishing to anyone who shows anything approaching a backbone, or is unwilling to be slapped around and talked down to like a gimp.
They've tried to push their "friendly to newbies, all are welcome" bullshit on a few different sites over the last few years, as the revolving door that props up their "stable numbers" slows down. They like to talk about all these new players who joined this quarter, compared to last quarter, like it's a boardroom, but the fact of the matter is those new players they insist are here to stay are actually up and leaving within a week of play.
Why? Because it's the culture of Arm for old players to abuse the ever loving shit out of new players, as if it was some kind of collage hazing ritual. You don't have to take my word for it, go check their forums and search some of their threads about newbies. You'll see lots of people bragging about how they tricked a new player into going into a dark alley and basically stealing their money, boots, or other things that make recovering and pushing on almost impossible for a new player, who has no idea how to even find a bank to store their money before this happens.
Check the games reviews on other sites, where people talk about their first experiences and the rotten treatment they receive. And yes, the "piss" thing actually happened and has happened several times, by the same player, who always seems to get away with it. He does scat, too, if you're wondering. A real charmer. Friendly to newbies, welcoming to all.
This is also about the last RPI in existence that supports and enables pedophilia. You don't have to take my word for it, you can find the rules on this on their website, or check reviews on other sites. One of my last PCs was involved in a plot with a Borsail, who's big thing was he liked little boys, both for sexual encounters and to torture. He actively sought out PCs that were aged 13-14 with "little boy" style descriptions, to basically have sex with, torture and then PK, in graphic details. Not sure if I'm more worried he was doing it, or that there were a few people willing to play it all out with him, considering the content of the scenes.
Amusingly, when I stored that PC because I found the players zeal for boy-love RP unsettling. I was told that was completely within the scope of the game and that I should review the documentation. I argued there is a big difference between keeping to the harshness of the docs and spending all of your game time pursuing and engaging in questionable sexual exploits, while my PC handled all the running of the clan and doing all the OOC work that was supposed to be pedoman's responsibility.
There was no discussion of my view, I was simply "asked" not to play PCs in Borsail in the future.
The game always had it's problems, but the last few years have been the worst by far. I'll never go back.
Keep your distance, it's a nut house.
-
I stopped reading half way through the last post, but it basically applies to all MUDs I've ever touched. Especially the whole "staff refuses to talk about ANYTHING with players, obfuscates everything, hides behind IC/OOC to excuse their shitty behavior, etc".
-
I felt the same.
I got confused. I thought MUDs were generally discretion free. My experiences were mostly negative because of PKing and General OOC uncooperative behavior.
But having an integral function hooked to staff discretion is kind of bananas.
-
@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:
What I was trying to get across is: Some people won’t break character to show you the right thing to do or say. That’s one of the essentials of good story telling right? Show don’t tell. I know it can feel like it’s a personal affront to you the player, but most people aren’t doing it to make you feel bad or silly or haze newbies. Give it a chance because it might lead you somewhere good.
No, it really isn't one of the essentials of good storytelling, and this blind and repetitive insistence that it's the only good way to play is alienating people here far, far more than the fact that you're advertising a MUD instead of a MUSH.
What you're describing - reacting ICly to an obvious OOC misunderstanding - is not only uncommon on most MUSHes, it's considered downright jerk-ish behavior. Not because we're wusses who get affronted by challenge, but because we find it silly when people don't acknowledge that the character should know things that you, the player, don't know.
-
@hedge said in Armageddon MUD:
collage hazing ritual
This caught my imagination. I need to implement this.
-
I never insisted it was the only way to tell a story. I also never insisted anyone was a wussy. I’m not even trying to make this a Mud vs Mush argument. I happen to be the type of woman that enjoys playing both. They both have their merits and they both have their flaws. The philosophy of storytelling isn’t what I posted this for either. I’m just saying what the philosophy to storytelling there is. If that’s not your cup of tea, that’s fine I can accept that. The thing is I keep trying to convey this.... you can make mistakes and not get punished.
-
@faraday said in Armageddon MUD:
@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:
What I was trying to get across is: Some people won’t break character to show you the right thing to do or say. That’s one of the essentials of good story telling right? Show don’t tell. I know it can feel like it’s a personal affront to you the player, but most people aren’t doing it to make you feel bad or silly or haze newbies. Give it a chance because it might lead you somewhere good.
No, it really isn't one of the essentials of good storytelling, and this blind and repetitive insistence that it's the only good way to play is alienating people here far, far more than the fact that you're advertising a MUD instead of a MUSH.
What you're describing - reacting ICly to an obvious OOC misunderstanding - is not only uncommon on most MUSHes, it's considered downright jerk-ish behavior. Not because we're wusses who get affronted by challenge, but because we find it silly when people don't acknowledge that the character should know things that you, the player, don't know.
It's how things are there.
"You've never RPed until you've RPed on Arm.", like the game is the holy grail of RP - they invented it, you know, like Al Gore invented the internet. The now moved-on Nergal used to talk about how he didn't care if people left, because the people who stuck around made for better, truer RP, or something to that effect.
Sorry to say, but you and everyone else is wrong. You're either doing it the Arm way, or the wrong way. Just ask them.
They'll lynch you in-game for a minor error that's easy to make, like emoting walking over to the message board to read it - reading is illegal, you see. The message board is right there and newbies fresh off the wagon don't realize it's an OOC construct, because it exists as an object in the room, so they emote reading it and every bored soldier PC, tavern idler and their cousins are leaping at the chance to antagonize them for it.
They won't let them apologize and do-over, either. No sir, they emoted it, they have it logged, they'll go to the staff if they have to, to see that poor sod is punished for slipping up in his first ten minutes of being in the game.
I've seen it happen dozens of times. There are people who will aggressively go out of their way to report it to a Templar, a noble, a soldier, to see the character punished, even when the player is corrected OOCly (in the OOC channel) and tries to re-emote something more appropriate. They really don't give a rip, they just want an excuse to PK someone, or ruin someones time, just because they've got the opportunity.
I've been in OOC disputes (bad form, I know) with other players for pursuing newbies for "treason" for this very thing, numerous times. The staff is quick to sweep in and inform me I'm the one out of line for it, too.
Friendly to newbies, welcoming to all.
-
See how ranty Hedge sounds? Those are for the most part the people that are gone from the game.
-
@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:
Those are for the most part the people that are gone from the game.
And the fact that it's only "for the most part" and not "a new policy has outlawed that crap because it's obnoxious and unacceptable" is the problem you seem to not want to acknowledge as a potential problem.
If I pose something obviously wrong based on an obvious OOC misunderstanding, allowing someone to react to that ICly strikes me as no less ridiculous than a director allowing actors in a period drama to react in-character to one of them accidentally leaving their cell-phone on. The proper response is to either gracefully pretend it didn't happen or to yell "Cut!" and fix it. Nobody expects the actors to stay in-character all: "OMG what sorcery is this? GET HIM!" (though that would be a pretty funny blooper on the DVD version)
-
@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:
See how ranty Hedge sounds? Those are for the most part the people that are gone from the game.
Without a leg to stand on, you default to conceited hand-waving.
You got me, mate. Good show.
-
If you can point me to a game that’s free of players like that, I’d gladly play it. As far as I know there is none.
Also you keep describing something that doesn’t happen. It simply doesn’t.
-
@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:
If you can point me to a game that’s free of players like that, I’d gladly play it. As far as I know there is none.
There are plenty of MUSHes where that sort of behavior is not tolerated. Now of course bad eggs happen and have to be dealt with, but that particular example is not something that happens often enough to bear mention.
@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:
Also you keep describing something that doesn’t happen. It simply doesn’t.
You yourself have said it does, repeatedly, by saying that people will react IC to people making OOC mistakes based on misunderstandings. Case in point:
@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:
What I was trying to get across is: Some people won’t break character to show you the right thing to do or say. That’s one of the essentials of good story telling right?
I'm not saying you're wrong for playing it that way. Your game, your prerogative. I'm saying you're wrong (IMHO) for insisting that it's an essential - or even preferred - way to play. I'm also saying that playing that way on the vast majority of MUSHes would quickly get you in trouble.
-
@faraday Right, that’s not what I’m saying though. If you can direct me to a game, a name, I’d gladly play it.
And on that same token, obviously if the game is like that you are going to have players that will take it to the extreme. Wherever you go, you are going to have that. So yes, for the most part players WILL understand that you’re new and you made a mistake. Are there players that might take it to the extreme, yes most likely there are. I’m not going to speak in an absolute like that, nor should I.
You don’t have to explain Mushes to me or how they’re different. Armageddon has rules just like any other game, so let’s not pretend it some lawless place. It’s not and you have the option to report actions you feel are wrong. Believe me staff takes complaints seriously.
I never suggested that way of play was essential or better either. So let’s not do that. In fact I never suggested Armageddon or the way it’s played was better than anything.
-
@thugheaven I dunno, I found the ad interesting. I mean, I can't get down with the odd defenses - like @AlexRocker , just don't do that. The RP doesn't choose anyone, and I feel there's a vast gulf between 'not being too nice' and 'pissing on people you've mugged'.
-
I get it, there is a gulf between “not nice” and “getting pissed on after you’ve been robbed”. I can’t defend that and I wouldn’t even try to. I can say something like that isn’t very common. From my experience veteran players go out of their way to show new players how to play the game.
-
hi, i'm evilcabbage, resident serial killer of armageddonmud. i am a prolific killer in the game in that in the eight years of playing armageddon i have managed to kill exactly six pcs, all of which had especially good reasons behind it.
i start with that so you understand what kind of a player i am. i do not do things without reason, and generally if your pc dies by my hand, you deserved it. you may not know what you did, but somewhere along the line you made a bad mistake and someone wanted you dead. this... has never happened to a single new player that has ever come to the game.
the community in armageddon that we have right now, barring the unadulterated rage of some people who a) do not play anymore, and b) do not have a feel for the current climate, is incredibly helpful to new players. we don't bend over backwards for them - we don't hand them keys to the castle. but if you come to our discord and you were to ask, "hey, @evilcabbage, can you give me some advice on how to get started", chances are i will answer you and give you some helpful advice.
if you were to, for instance, go, "hey, @evilcabbage, what is a blue robe templar," i would tell you "blue robe templars, addressed as lord or lady templar, are the magick-wielding authorities of the city of allanak and require bowing when they enter an area, and when you approach them to speak to them."
if you went, "hey, @evilcabbage, my pc lives in allanak and i need to know where to buy water", i could tell you where the water sellers are and how to get the knowledge to use them. generally you shouldn't tell me your pc lives in allanak or wherever to begin with, but for very simple things like "how should i react to x robe entering a room", i will be more than happy to tell you the appropriate titles and addresses and what you should do.
why would i do that? because this isn't a game where concealing basic information any citizen of a city would know is considered good. the people who come here, and make the complaint that certain people are staff bootlickers, forget that some of those people they call "bootlickers" were on staffs naughty radar for doing bad things - and improved as players.
here, i'll quote something from hedge:
"They'll lynch you in-game for a minor error that's easy to make, like emoting walking over to the message board to read it - reading is illegal, you see. The message board is right there and newbies fresh off the wagon don't realize it's an OOC construct, because it exists as an object in the room, so they emote reading it and every bored soldier PC, tavern idler and their cousins are leaping at the chance to antagonize them for it."
this does not happen. we do not lynch people for emoting reading it. we ooc politely, "the message board is actually just a gaggle of rumor-mongering people, not a real message board, as reading is illegal for commoners and restricted to important merchant house family members and the highborn (nobility and templarate)".
despite what hedge would tell you, we "are" very welcoming to new players. the welcome might be an introduction to being mugged and murdered, or being abused, or being treated lower than low because you're a commoner and that's a templar, but you are being introduced to the world.
if you make crazy egregious mistakes like punching people with "kill" instead of "hit" in a tavern brawl, yes, you are going to be introduced violently to crime code. you might try to steal from someone, fail, and get caught. you might call someone the wrong title - generally they'll correct you. it might be mean, the way they do it, but they will correct you and 99.9999999999% of the time it does not end in your death unless you revert to insulting said person.
i hope i have cleared some of this stuff up for some of you. i'm here until thursday.
-
@evilcabbage said in Armageddon MUD:
you might call someone the wrong title - generally they'll correct you. it might be mean, the way they do it, but they will correct you
ok but why though
Like, that does not sound welcoming. None of what you said sounds welcoming to someone new to the game, except that someone might deign to answer ooc questions on an ooc discord.
-
This post is deleted!
