A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion
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The “or I’d lose copyright” excuse was constructed whole cloth from this discussion, not attributed to any author. The statement is just a much supposition as many things said here. If this part is taken out, which I think is a very reasonable thing to do, then it’s about as offensive as saying that you have to clean your room because you’re the mom, not because you want to.
That’s why I think this conversation has gotten, in a word, silly. We were reacting to things before knowing the reality of them.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@thenomain said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
The “or I’d lose copyright” excuse was constructed whole cloth from this discussion, not attributed to any author. The statement is just a much supposition as many things said here. If this part is taken out, which I think is a very reasonable thing to do, then it’s about as offensive as saying that you have to clean your room because you’re the mom, not because you want to.
- Martin, George R. R. Believes fanfiction damages copyright and authors should not allow it, even though he wrote amateur comic fic himself when younger...
- Roberson, Jennifer Chronicles of the Cheysuli, Sword-Dancer Saga "If I grant permission, I risk endangering my copyright…. My sincere apologies--hey, I wrote fanfic in high school and college!--and I hope you understand." [146]
- Weber, David Honor Harrington series, War Gods series, others. "[A] writer cannot allow the free use of his universe without risking the loss of his own rights to it." [150]
It's been said, there and elsewhere. And it's just flat-out incorrect.
I understand an author's desire not to deal with headaches resulting from fanfic. I respect their right to have sole control over their work. I don't find the discussion silly. If you do, just... stop reading maybe?
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I don't wanna be rude but could we please take the copyright questions to another thread?
To re-focus this one: what things would people like to see on a GoT or L&L game that isn't being done elsewhere?
We've got some good stuff so far! I like the idea of having a minigame of managing a realm, some sort of global conflict to unite people, and an open world where people can build their own realms (castles and such).
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@kanye-qwest said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
So if an author said "sure, I don't care, make whatever you want" and then happened to write something that was very similar to a fan work, that fan could not then turn around and sue the author for copyright infringement, right?
That is the usual reason given for that, but hey this is American if someone want to sue you they can likely work up enough grounds from ether to at least file.
So with most authors it is done to prevent hassle more than an actual concern for possible loss. -
@zombiegenesis said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
To re-focus this one: what things would people like to see on a GoT or L&L game that isn't being done elsewhere?
Thanks.
If this came up in the pages of copyright stuff, my bad, but what codebase? Curious if Ares crossed your mind at all, 'cause I'd love to see that "in production." Being able to CharGen on the web is OMG.
I've always thought that a GoT set at an AU point following the Blackfyre rebellion would be awesome. The Blackfyres win, the metaplot concerns them either tightening or losing their grip on the Iron Throne, and the subplots spin out from there.
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Right now, if it goes forward, it would be on TinyMUX. And I was actually thinking about something in or around the Blackfyre Rebellion!
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Not a fan of rostered characters, though I understand their utility. And the system for creating your own house is awesome, though I have found that sometimes that leads to 23 players and 22 custom houses. You may need to come up with something to avoid that. If you use established houses as well as custom, I don't think that's as much of a problem.
Other than that, I'd just like to see a new GoT game out there. Learning the system is easy enough with what is out there.
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@zombiegenesis Which one?
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@zombiegenesis said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
- Custom houses. I think this would be one of the biggest draws to a game, getting a few people together and creating your own house. The RPG has fantastic rules for this. Would people actually use such a system?
I think only having custom Houses would be counterproductive. People coming to a GoT game probably want to play a Stark or a Lannister - the characters may be different (and it's probably a good idea) but the rest of the setup is what makes Westeros tick. It's what makes Game of Thrones different than a generic L&L game, IMHO.
If you wanted to add some as well to the mix, well, I don't think anyone will mind.
- Setting. The game needs to be political, sure, but it could be Big Political or Little Political. By Big Political I mean setting it in some place like King's Landing and allowing all types of characters from all over Westeros and beyond. By Little Political I mean setting it in one specific location (Casterly Rock, say) and focus on the politics of that region. This would obviously have an impact on what custom houses were available.
I absolutely, 100% urge you to base it on a central location. You do not want your playerbase split up between a bunch of places it takes days/weeks to travel between; barring PrPs your players should never have to see a scene taking place somewhere on your grid and be unable to join because their characters are in King's Landing while it's taking place at the Wall.
Does that mean you might lose out on some opportunities for cool settings (outside of plots)? It absolutely does.
- Ready-made characters. Would having a +roster filled with characters that players could just do a small app for be worth investing time in? It seems to work on other places but I don't play on those places so I'm unsure.
Rosters seem to have worked well in other games, I don't see why they wouldn't here.
- Sticking to canon. This is something I don't really care much about. I figure we start the game and not worry about if what we do would prevent the game from eventually leading into the books or whatever. Do what we want and have fun telling our story, not worry about the story that GRR Martin will eventually tell. Would this be a deal breaker for fans of the theme?
I don't think it's a deal breaker as long as you document it well and simply. Westeros has had several upheavals, but as long as you offer fan favorite options their current circumstances shouldn't be too relevant; placing it a couple of hundred years in the past compared to the books/show is probably a good idea though.
I was just curious what, if anything, people might be looking for that may be missing from current games in the L&L/GoT niche. Thanks.
The trick here is doing something better than other games. If you rely on GoT to be that difference it won't be a great game, IMHO; if you use the setting to enhance and draw players - you'll need more than a few to make a political environment work - then it could be great.
What this absolutely depends on is your answer to this question - how ambitious are you with this project?
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Probably GRRM won't respond to attempts to contact him. Green Ronin essentially said 'huh, whatever," and let me post an advert for GoB on their forums.
Martin has gone sane about fanfic:
"I am opposed to fan fiction, but people can do whatever they want for their own personal amusement, so long as they don't send it to me."
-- George R. R. Martin, Mar. 28th, 2014http://grrm.livejournal.com/362384.html?thread=18879632#t18879632
There's really no evidence that Martin thinks MUs are fanfic. He's said that he /wanted/ them made for his IPs. Lindaaaaaa's claim that she and Elio are the only people in the world that GRRM thinks are good enough to GM a GoT/ASoIaF MU is really obviously specious. Also, it really seems as if GRRM doesn't like her any more than the rest of us do. So in some old interview with GRRM he mentions that he's had people ask about making MUs (before the show came along, when he enjoyed having fans) and he's referred them to Blood of Dragons, but I fancy if you replied to that, "Yeah, I know, but nobody I want to play with or GM wants to play with or be GMed by Lindaaa," you'd get an okay because he's a gamer himself. If you could get his attention, which doesn't seem likely.
I advise you to just go for it. It's a case where it's a lot easier, faster, and more fun to ask forgiveness than to ask permission.
A lot of people were disappointed that GoB didn't really use Green Ronin's system, and it might be that using it will be a draw. I fear that most GoT fans have GoT burnout, though.
I didn't allow players to invent their own houses, because there are hundreds of them in the source material and keeping track of them is a huge pain. As far as I can tell, the big challenge of a GoT game (that's not something that comes up in other MUs) is keeping track of who is related to who and how, and not letting a single or small group of players cockblock the rest world from playing their favourite house.
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As we keep being brought up in this thread, guess that's an invitation to contribute.
@auspice said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
If you get the permission of the IP holder (in this case, GRRM / the show creators), they'll gladly let you use the game rules provided you don't claim to own any of it, etc etc... I think the issue more comes back to them being afraid of the IP owner circling back on them, since they only have permission to create the game rules.
This is in accord with our understanding from Chris Pramas, whom we've conversed with on occasion. To quote him:
As you are no doubt aware, the rights for A Song of Ice and Fire are sliced up into many pieces. We have no electronic rights at all; those belong to other companies. We could not license our game out for any kind of software treatment. Properties like Mutants & Masterminds that we own outright are different. We made a deal with the Storium people to support Freedom City, for example.
@thenomain said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
and keeping Nym entirely out of the loop.
Just underscoring that this is quite correct. There's no reason at all put Linda and I "in the loop" in the first place if you're asking George's permission. It's his bailiwick.
@packrat said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
'People' in this context being Nymeria
This is incorrect. Posted this on this very forum:
The one thing a lot of them (GRRM included) cite which I think is the wrong thing to take out of the Bradley situation, though, is the idea that if they do not actively police the use of their copyright, they can "lose" it. But this is an idea taken from trademark law which doesn't apply to copyright. A more accurate thing to say is that there have been cases where the court has seemed to feel that a person being aware of unauthorized use of their IP and allowing it to continue could largely forfeit any hopes of receiving punitive damages if they changed their mind about it at a later date.
@il-volpe said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
He's said that he /wanted/ them made for his IPs.
I assume "them" is MU*s. Got a link? Could be something to add to the SSM!
@ZombieGenesis IMO, if your game is a private game with just a handful of invited characters, and you're basically using the MUX framework as a virtual table top kind of thing, I don't think you really need permission. I'm not sure what "semi-private" would be in the context of a MUX, but if it's more public than private, I would think that asking George's permission would be the appropriate thing to do, given his expressed wishes on such things. (Also, if you got George's permission, it sounds like GR would be okay with the use of SIFRP in such a scenario, too.)
Definitely agree with sticking to one or maybe two areas. It's appealing to be able to have large chunks of Westeros available to play in, but Westeros is too damned big to really support it unless you've a very large player base (which doesn't seem compatible with a private/semi-private game). As far as custom houses go, in a small game, I wouldn't see a problem. But you may find some or most of the invited players prefer to stick to what they know, which tends to be the Great Houses. I guess the benefit of a private game is you can discuss this with folks beforehand and see what they want.
As far as canon and time period goes, the Blackfyre rebellions certainly offer a lot of space for political play on larger and smaller scales. I'd pick the run-up or aftermath of the 3rd rebellion myself, because it's so lightly sketched (for now, anyways) and means you've a wide latitude both with filling in the blanks of the start conditions (who supported what side, etc.) and just easily going off in your own direction if that proves of interest to your players. Obviously, a "what if" version of the 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion could also be a thing. Though I'd go further back than the usual point, picking up from Aegon V's death and the immediate aftermath of his having legitimized all of his bastards. Seems like it'd be ripe for intrigues and conflicts.
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@zombiegenesis said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
I don't wanna be rude but could we please take the copyright questions to another thread?
Guys, please respect the OP's request. Make a different thread for the copyright stuff.
Thank you.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@arkandel said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
Guys, please respect the OP's request. Make a different thread for the copyright stuff.
Why not split it off and move the posts so the discussion isn't split up (or, since I think it's pretty talked out, so it isn't buried in a random thread for posterity).
