Valorous Dominion
-
@lotherio said in Valorous Dominion:
1 request to gain 1 resourcese was not how it works.
You said (it's only a few posts up) that they spent both resources and made enough prestige to buy those resources back and profit. I like the idea of long-term investment and return, but it seems like, if you spend money to gain benefit X, you shouldn't get that money back in the same month to then be able to buy Y, and then get it back again to buy Z.
I don't know. Again it feels like we're talking past each other or somehow missing some little detail here.
Not to argue put to prevent jobs queue from blowing up on us.
You two burning out is a big concern and a lot of why I'm talking about this, as well as the post that started this (which wasn't even mine!) about lack of RP.
+requests create staff work and little RP. This isn't to say they're all bad, but right now a lot of the game happens behind the scenes and outpaces RP. A player who +requests 5 minutes after a +bbpost gains more than someone who does a lot of RP about a subject.
So I think it's to the game's benefit to focus on things that happen on grid (the scene yesterday was great), and structuring plots so that there's reason for the houses to interact. (Feel free to steal my idea about splitting up the necessary clues or requirements to solve a problem across multiple houses!).
-
@bored said in Valorous Dominion:
Go read your post. You specify 3 houses are good, and then say a 'handful' of others (there really aren't that many) are 'doing nothing.' If that's not some nasty ass bitchy vague-shade, I don't know what it is. It's also pretty much bullshit on its face as I'm fairly sure every house is doing at least something. Maybe not all of it is stuff you're privy to?
Yeah, I read that post, and I thought: that seems to be a pretty spot-on observation of fact.
It's not "nasty ass bitchy vague-shade" if the opinion or observation is based on, well, experience.
The only people that can really say otherwise are on staff, but, as far as I can tell, there are houses that are apparently busier than others. And this will continue to be the case until the houses are fleshed out.
It happened on Fifth Kingdom too.
Throttle the attitude back, man, and stop being so defensive.
-
I mean, I for one am not really doing things yet because I have no idea what's going on or what to do! Which is fine, I'm mostly here to relax. It's super hard to keep track of all the names, though.
-
I'm struggling a bit with the game's system as someone who ran a small plot, and how to build social challenges that allow me to work off of the characters' skills involved, rather than the players, who may still be trying to understand the theme and setting (as am I) well enough to develop effective reactions.
Anyone more familiar with the system have more insight on how to create social/intellectual challenges and opportunities that rely on characters' competencies rather than players' competencies (and my competence to accurately and usefully convey all the information in the scene that the players might need to make effective choices)?
-
Right, and that's totally, 100 percent, okay.
But, as Auspice points out, if a player is sending communication from his PC to set some political situation up with another PC, and that PC's player isn't responding, it slows down the politics. This just happens: it happens on Vampire games, as it happened on Fifth Kingdom, as I'm sure it happens on Kushiel and other Lords and Ladies games.
Responding back with a simple "I'm not sure what the fuck is going on or what to do" is as much a response as any other, and is a pretty reasonable position to take on a game that just opened up with a system that is pretty rare on MUSHes. I'm almost positive that Arx had a similar situation when it first opened because I didn't know what the fuck to do, and that's okay.
The economy system could use some better documentation, that's for sure, but I complained about Arx's system similarly too.
But not responding to +mails and attempts to communicate? That's also going to cause a problem. That and +mail because, FFS, I hate +mail so much.
@pyrephox said in Valorous Dominion:
Anyone more familiar with the system have more insight on how to create social/intellectual challenges and opportunities that rely on characters' competencies rather than players' competencies (and my competence to accurately and usefully convey all the information in the scene that the players might need to make effective choices)?
I think I read somewhere that the entire point to Pendragon is that it relies on player competencies socially and intellectually. Any rolls related thereto demonstrate the effectiveness of the choices, not the choices themselves. There are some massive holes in the system (e.g., Awareness, but no Stealth?), but I'm guessing plots are supposed to unfold in a very organic way. That, and some agency is left to the Trait system, which can be a little frustrating.
-
@ganymede Yeah. Lack of stealth, lack of knowledge related skills (Fashion, Romance, and High Finance, yes! But no, say, Underworld, or 'Knowledge of this City', or History, or Politics, or...), and lack of a framework for how to set up social/intellectual challenges in a satisfying way is making the idea of running things - or figuring out how to get my character involved without spending way more time reading up on things than I'd hoped - a bit daunting.
-
Real quick - stealth falls under Dex. A sneaky char may make a dex roll vs alertness of potential observers. If I knew anyone on game needed this from the books, I would of gladly responded with the information, my apology that its confusing. Alertness is broader than this, as it can be used to simply spot something out of the ordinary, or notice something that may be important amidst a raging battle.
Information gathering falls under a few skills. This includes Intrigue and Manipulate. Manipulate is a region specific skill that is the same effectiveness as Intrigue. Intrigue is picking up on subtleties in a room, knowing where to hear gossip (servants, the markets etc.), or where to find information, its a nicer skill than Manipulate. Manipulate returns the same but its more about manipulating the usual subjects to get them to give the information you are seeking.
There are a lot of skills that seem maybe pointless - orating, composing, dancing, etc. I'll use a quote I picked up from a Kushiel game once; the castle court is the medieval equivalent to the mall. Which was funny, but in some ways true, going to the open parts of the castle to mingle and socialize was a thing to do. These skills are sort of the 'golf course' skills of the nobility. In setting up a social contest/challenge, it might take more than a fast intrigue roll with an NPC, maybe telling them a tale will gather their interest (orate), maybe dancing at some event will entertain one enough to get to that meeting where Manipulate or Intrigue may be more relevant.
+Requests are there in Valorous, we've told no one to use them until it seemed like others were missing out and we put up the bbpost as an indicator to please use that. I know some staff and requests on other games may make some folks gun-shy, but its really the OOC tool to work with staff to figure things out, much as just asking the GM in a TT game what would be needed to talk the merchant into reducing the price when there is no apparent haggle skill.
Econ system and House system needs more explaining. Some of it has been on a hard to find page on the wiki called House Rules, which has been under the Game tab along with a few other things specific to the game. It does need a better explanation and this is something we are working to address. Layout of the wiki is going to be addressed going forward, we have a great volunteer working at this and from what we've seen so far, it looks great.
There may in the end be a lack of some definition. There isn't a set limit of 'this is a game, these are its boundaries'; we're shooting for open role-playing and we don't want limits but we want players to learn what little there is and grow from there. I mean, maybe someone will want to assassinate one of the Emperors at some point, I don't know. As staff we're there to ponder what any number of infinite possibilities will work towards such ends and how it might be possible so we can respond to proceed in that direction.
I know the house system is questionable. I want to point out we've always intended for periodic skill gains outside of Valor/Reputation, similar to Winter Phase, but rather Seasonal. Technically in one or two seasons, those using the econ system will have enough points in House Skills that the chance of 'debt' to the state will be removed. Barring a series of super bad roles, everyone will just make gains for trade or use in building additions, the debt is reflective of a new house starting and its meant to simulate house building in the game from the ground up rather than just coming into well established house (even though thematically they are well established).
ETA - Okay that wasn't real quick, sorry. Similar, all criticism is fair and valid, we do need to know where we may be failing or where we can improve.
-
@Lotherio I keep forgetting to ask, any chance of you guys making the standard kind of build room for players to just dig and desc their own rooms that you guys can just review and then link to the grid? It might just be my own preference but requesting the build and the descs you want feels awkward, especially if you like a bit more detailed stuff.
On that note I have asked in game a few times but I think you guys were swamped: where on the grid can palazzos go? When I explored it looked like all the current ones are linked to two specific spots on the grid. Is that the only ones or are there others that could be used?
-
@kay said in Valorous Dominion:
@Lotherio I keep forgetting to ask, any chance of you guys making the standard kind of build room for players to just dig and desc their own rooms that you guys can just review and then link to the grid? It might just be my own preference but requesting the build and the descs you want feels awkward, especially if you like a bit more detailed stuff.
On that note I have asked in game a few times but I think you guys were swamped: where on the grid can palazzos go? When I explored it looked like all the current ones are linked to two specific spots on the grid. Is that the only ones or are there others that could be used?
Galileo and I will talk about the build thing, I can't decide it on my own.
It can be anyplace on the grid, those two locations just seems to be the preference so far. There is a map on the wiki, http://valorous.wikidot.com/theme:matora . Any place is welcome the larger buildings are in those areas, as well as on the west side of the river there, but any place is open for locations.
-
Quick follow up. We'll look at a build nexus in ooc rooms. This would allow insertion of places by players as well as ambiance without requests. More creativity. Their is an in game version of +view as well, could add individual item descriptions too even. We'll see about getting something set up along that route.
I'm just a surge protector doing my job, sir.
-
@lotherio I really love how fast and easy going you guys are. I really appreciate it!
-
@pyrephox said in Valorous Dominion:
I'm struggling a bit with the game's system as someone who ran a small plot, and how to build social challenges that allow me to work off of the characters' skills involved, rather than the players, who may still be trying to understand the theme and setting (as am I) well enough to develop effective reactions.
Anyone more familiar with the system have more insight on how to create social/intellectual challenges and opportunities that rely on characters' competencies rather than players' competencies (and my competence to accurately and usefully convey all the information in the scene that the players might need to make effective choices)?
I'm not sure what houserules have been bolted on for this game, but the stock answer within Pendragon is basically that... you don't. The system is laser focused on replicating Mallory-style Arthurian romances with the players as Arthurian knights, and anything that isn't to do with that is left out by design.
-
@pyrephox said in Valorous Dominion:
I'm struggling a bit with the game's system as someone who ran a small plot, and how to build social challenges that allow me to work off of the characters' skills involved, rather than the players, who may still be trying to understand the theme and setting (as am I) well enough to develop effective reactions.
Anyone more familiar with the system have more insight on how to create social/intellectual challenges and opportunities that rely on characters' competencies rather than players' competencies (and my competence to accurately and usefully convey all the information in the scene that the players might need to make effective choices)?
I've run Pendragon a fair bit, both with my RL group and on Realms and the system can be a bit daunting, I suppose, though it can run a wide variety of scenes and encounters, including social and intellectual. A lot of it is left to narrative, but to work skills in you could call for a Courtesy Roll to set the stage, see how receptive a given NPC is to the players approach, intrigue and recognize skills can be used to convey information about what is going on, who is around, etc. The liberal use of Traits as well is used to help flavor scenes, which is a little harder in a MU* environment given the more static nature of traits, rather then the ebb and flow you find in the tabletop - it encourages a player to play to their traits if they want to grow them, you don't have that here sadly.
In these types of scenes it should be Success / Fail, with Critical rolls being particularly spectacular, an awareness roll could be something like:
Success: You notice the wine is poisoned.
Critical Success: You notice the wine is poisoned, and you see the servant slipping a vial away into his belt.
Failure: The wine is just fine.
Critical Failure: This wine tastes great!That formula can be used for just about any task or challenge you want to throw in to help with the roleplay, but in the system Failure should always be an interesting option. A Social Faux Pas through a critical failure in a Courtesy roll could lead to an interesting Vindicti, or something along those lines.
-
Here's even more discussion of non-combat:
Non-combat from the KAP forum.
I use the other skills to determine if an NPC becomes open to intrigue/influence. The request geared towards traits/passions is another good appeal. The game is open for intrigue. We had an old squires game a little that Greg was in/mostly observing back in Yahoo groups that involved intrigue. The skill to impress someone has been written into several published adventure from orate and courtesy to playing an instrument. Still error on the side of player intelligence but there's a wealth of opposed rolls one can used for social encounters.
I'm just a surge protector doing my job, sir.
-
Thank you all! That helps a lot.
-
@lotherio When are the murderbot character generation rules getting added to the wiki? Asking for a friend.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
-
@arkandel said in Valorous Dominion:
@lotherio When are the murderbot character generation rules getting added to the wiki? Asking for a friend.
I'm not sure what the murderbot character generation rules are. There's no chance of a character dying in the Pendragon Rules during CG? There was chances for father/grand fathers and such to die if using expanded CG to define what happened with them. There remains a small chance during winter phase to die (due to attribute loss) but in current edition, sickness and plague do not show up in random rolls. But maybe i'm missing something in the question too, I confuse myself half the time.
I'm just a surge protector doing my job, sir.
-
@lotherio said in Valorous Dominion:
@arkandel said in Valorous Dominion:
@lotherio When are the murderbot character generation rules getting added to the wiki? Asking for a friend.
I'm not sure what the murderbot character generation rules are. There's no chance of a character dying in the Pendragon Rules during CG? There was chances for father/grand fathers and such to die if using expanded CG to define what happened with them. There remains a small chance during winter phase to die (due to attribute loss) but in current edition, sickness and plague do not show up in random rolls. But maybe i'm missing something in the question too, I confuse myself half the time.
To explain, he's being cheeky - we were being silly on the public channel on game last night discussing the game's theme as if it were a made up cyberpunk game where you could play mutated superheroic murderbots (with katanas!). I think he assumed you'd seen the conversation.
But I am glad you answered the question so seriously because I had no idea the expanded CG had that potential for the father/grandfather explanations! Neat. -
@Arkandel Here I was hoping you were referring to The Murderbot Diaries.
-
@kay said in Valorous Dominion:
To explain, he's being cheeky
Cheeky! How dare you. I give such matters the sober attention that they deserve.
