Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?

surreality · Jun 12, 2018, 7:39 PM

@ganymede It essentially treats 'power level' like it would, say, 'sphere' or 'faction' relative to alt limits.

I like that on the whole.

There are a bunch of things I'd like to see handled that way on games. They could have overlap with other 'rarities', but as an example, 'no more than 1 alt with resources 5' (or equivalent for whatever system is in use) would do the coherence and relative sanity of any given game more than a few favors, that's for damned sure. (It was on the list in my head, anyway.)

ThatOneDude · Jun 12, 2018, 7:40 PM

@ganymede said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

@thenomain said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

What is the goal of either method? That is, what is it you think that makes one method better than another?

I believe the goal of The Reach and Fallcoast is to allow everyone to get to a high XP level, irrespective of the number of alts at that level. Fate's Harvest is clearly stated to be a place where people can play high-Wyrd changelings, but they only allow one alt at the highest level.

I like Fate's Harvest better because it limits the number of high-powered alts per player.

Agreed, though in theory you could level up a tier 4 pc to tier 5 xp levels but it would take some time... I think it works and could be used as a model for these other games. More so since most games don't /really/ allow PK so the whole power disparity thing is less a thing. IE: There is less chance my 900xp Mage is going to want to destroy your 100xp Vampire. I say less chance because people are people.

Ganymede · Jun 12, 2018, 7:56 PM

@thatonedude said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

IE: There is less chance my 900xp Mage is going to want to destroy your 100xp Vampire. I say less chance because people are people.

Yeah. Vampires are assholes.

Ideally, I'd like games to only permit one PC per player. The starting power level should be uniform, and progression should be slow. But I realize not everyone shares my preference.

Thenomain · Jun 12, 2018, 8:06 PM

@ganymede

Fair.

I'm currently creating a character on a game far, far higher power than I'm comfortable with because this is what people around me are playing. I am angsting (loudly; sorry everyone around me) that I will not be able to justify this to the gatekeepers and therefore be asked to not play with those people around me.

So FH and SF may be the only two tier systems I've encountered that make a systematic difference. In my world, that's a justification to use them.

ThatOneDude · Jun 12, 2018, 8:21 PM

@thenomain said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

@ganymede

Fair.

I'm currently creating a character on a game far, far higher power than I'm comfortable with because this is what people around me are playing. I am angsting (loudly; sorry everyone around me) that I will not be able to justify this to the gatekeepers and therefore be asked to not play with those people around me.

So FH and SF may be the only two tier systems I've encountered that make a systematic difference. In my world, that's a justification to use them.

Just remember, if they ask you if you're the Keymaster, just say yes.

Ganymede · Jun 12, 2018, 8:29 PM

@thenomain said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

I'm currently creating a character on a game far, far higher power than I'm comfortable with because this is what people around me are playing. I am angsting (loudly; sorry everyone around me) that I will not be able to justify this to the gatekeepers and therefore be asked to not play with those people around me.

On Fate's Harvest, you're not required to spend all your XP going on. In fact, you can keep a large amount of it as a "resource" to draw from to improve your PC commensurate with his or her RP. Personally, I reserved over 200 XP on my PC after character generation, and still have 161 XP left on her after a few months of playing.

So, if that's the game you're talking about, I can tell you that Annapurna doesn't care if you pick a Tier 5 PC and reserve 900 XP at the end of it. At least, I don't think she'd care.

Thenomain · Jun 12, 2018, 9:10 PM

@ganymede

Nope, it's SF. Paraphrased from the game: Tiers will inform who can do what.

Yeah, so, if I want to do what my friends are, I'm forced into it.

I'm not excited about this, but then when I have I been excited about anyone's WoD chargen?

(That's a trick question. The answer is never. I have never been excited about anyone's WoD chargen.)

surreality · Jun 12, 2018, 9:14 PM

@ganymede When I was tinkering with making something there, I did the same: kept a fair bit in reserve. Made a mortal with the intent of later going through a becoming. Went with top tier, made a skilled mortal with the lion's share of her XP in reserve. So can confirm this was viable, at least back when. Never got around to playing, but was approved under those terms and with that plan mentioned and discussed and so on without anything but positive encouragement.

Lithium · Jun 12, 2018, 10:11 PM

@thenomain Which is kind of silly, as I did not optimize my mage I am pretty sure my lower tier Changeling is way more powerful in swingy combat than my mage even though has less xp.

Oh well.

ThatOneDude · Jun 12, 2018, 10:34 PM

@lithium said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

@thenomain Which is kind of silly, as I did not optimize my mage I am pretty sure my lower tier Changeling is way more powerful in swingy combat than my mage even though has less xp.

Oh well.

WHAT?! Mage is so OP'ed <this is my sarcastic voice>

Ganymede · Jun 13, 2018, 1:34 AM

@thenomain said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

(That's a trick question. The answer is never. I have never been excited about anyone's WoD chargen.)

Even your own? That's some real self-loathing shit right there.

Thenomain · Jun 13, 2018, 1:37 AM

@ganymede said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

@thenomain said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

(That's a trick question. The answer is never. I have never been excited about anyone's WoD chargen.)

Even your own? That's some real self-loathing shit right there.

I like my own chargen just fine, but not the hoops that everyone but @Cobaltasaurus has made people go through to get approved. I've also been recently told that my chargen is "confusing". My gut reaction to that is people are "idiots", and that if the Reach-style chargen that has been going around lately is what people prefer, then I would ask them to tell me where on the doll Mushing has touched them.

Really it's mostly that I have problems coming up with a concept that part of my mind instantly sabotages because I've become jaded through too many years in this hobby.

I'm not interested in one more moment of making a character for you, staff. I want to make a character for me, and that means finding out what this character is about during play.

Taika · Jun 13, 2018, 2:04 AM

@Thenomain - lipwibble Does the size of the hoops matter? And if so, is a big hoop easier to jump or a small one?

Thenomain · Jun 13, 2018, 2:11 AM

@taika

It's mostly that I'm prepared at any moment to be slammed down for my concept because someone I don't know doesn't like it. Getting up the energy to fight though this learned behavior is often too much for me.

Sometimes—rarely—that someone I don't know tells me what they do like about the app so I can focus on that and get it done.

Most of the time I'm over-thinking it.

Taika · Jun 13, 2018, 2:30 AM

@Thenomain - I'm sorry That kind of crap always sucks. Part of why I tried to minimize cgen stuff on tdm. It's worse when it's just a flat 'no' instead of a 'hey, can we chat so I can get a better idea of what you want?'.

Ganymede · Jun 13, 2018, 3:58 AM

@thenomain said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

Really it's mostly that I have problems coming up with a concept that part of my mind instantly sabotages because I've become jaded through too many years in this hobby.

I'm not interested in one more moment of making a character for you, staff. I want to make a character for me, and that means finding out what this character is about during play.

Look, we've both been around the block, and I still can't figure out why an old salty-ass slut-bag like me finds little or no trouble getting my bizarre-ass concepts through while others can't.

There's nothing wrong with your chargen.

Derp · Jun 13, 2018, 4:56 AM

@thenomain said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

Sometimes—rarely—that someone I don't know tells me what they do like about the app so I can focus on that and get it done.

I.don't know what you are making, but Gabriel does this. He takes the bg you write and the concept you have and tries to figure out how to get you connected to the larger picture.

The others I have no idea, but I assume a similar process.

Misadventure · Jun 13, 2018, 9:43 AM

My suggestion, both for normal Chargen and experiences/elite chargen, is mainly make up packages with set values.

EG Skil A & B at 4, skills C D E at 3, and like choose 4of these 6 skills at 2, and contacts at 2 pts, and ....

Why? It shows what the staff expects from an experienced person with a given history. It gives xp value without giving the complete ability to min max for specific builds etc. You can also require either disads or things like a criminal record, etc.

You can also say that certain packages (or their contents) are required to get a high rating in something.

Killer Klown · Jun 13, 2018, 11:24 AM

@misadventure That works for multiplicative systems like oWoD or nWoD 1e (Remember Elysium in oWoD? Not only did your Elders have more xp starting off, they had an elevated template of stats to distribute as well). 2e pretty much did away with the need to minmax, given that everything is flat cost - it costs just as much to go from 1 dot to 2 as it does to go from 4 dots to 5 in any given stat. People will still try to maximize their pools, probably; but there's no real burned in need to and no great benefit for doing so. To my experience you're far better served in spreading your points around with an eye to pre-requisites than just trying to buff pools

Darc · Jun 13, 2018, 7:17 PM

@thenomain said in Experienced Tiers or How much is too much?:

@ganymede

Nope, it's SF. Paraphrased from the game: Tiers will inform who can do what.

Yeah, so, if I want to do what my friends are, I'm forced into it.

There's paraphrasing, and there's what you just did there. Let's take a look at the posted policy:

*TIERS

Start XP For Tiers:
Tier 1: 100 XP
Tier 2: 250 XP
Tier 3: 400 XP
Tier 4: 500 XP
All characters are capped at 900 XP

Plots will generally be expected to have a Tier Warning, giving players an
idea of the general difficulty of the adversaries they will face.*

A WARNING. One designed to give the GENERAL difficulty of the adversaries they will face.

Now, if you'd like to talk more specifically, let's instead dive into the idea you're talking about. You'd like to play something that is a bit less experienced than his cabal mates. So, when it comes down to it, you're the kid (I use the term 'kid' here lightly. You are the one that has not managed to accomplish as much as the others, it likely has nothing to do with chronological age) of the group. That's the role you've chosen. That doesn't disqualify you from participation, because you've got a Cabal around you. There may be IC ramifications (maybe your cabalmates warn you off because 'you're not ready' or they take extra pains to protect you in combat), but none of these things eliminate your participation. Those things will play out in a way that is hopefully interesting and believable. Because that's the role you chosen. You know... role play.