Respecs.

[surreality]

@faraday Definitely a different thread, but I like learn times. I think they need to be more condensed to, yes, allow it to happen faster than it would in the real world in most cases, but not 0-60 in 0 seconds flat.

Some games have a necessary respec in the form of 'becomings' -- when through the course of IC events, someone literally becomes some other kind of creature. This is most common in WoD but it could be relevant in other systems, too. Some powers or abilities are only allowed for the group they started in, while others are required or available for their new one. If they're going through the process of that change, all the free -- and bought -- powers and abilities of the original group get dropped (because they must as they can no longer be used), and they get the new free or required ones for the new group. Most folks I've seen do this don't shuffle anything but these things and any other requirements around at that time, which I have zero issue with.

Typically this is magic woo woo powers of some kind, though, so in that context (read: 'this is really a magical transformation/superhero origin/etc.') it doesn't bother me.

Is this actually necessary? Objectively, no. You could opt to leave people stuck with a pile of things on their sheet they can never use again -- which could totally screw them on XP and leave things on their sheet that could mechanically complicate the coded processes of the game -- but I wouldn't be inclined to do this.

[Arkandel]

@surreality said in Respecs.:

@faraday Definitely a different thread, but I like learn times. I think they need to be more condensed to, yes, allow it to happen faster than it would in the real world in most cases, but not 0-60 in 0 seconds flat.

I think it kinda sorta belongs in this thread because one of the arguments against respecs is plausibility; as in "hey, yesterday you lost a fight to that little girl but today you karate-chopped a brick in half".

My personal preference is to handwave most of these things completely because if examined closely enough very little would hold up in 'realistic' terms. Whether becoming a surgeon took you one week or six months it's still impossible, and yet very few games running in real time would even stay open long enough for the skill raise to make strict sense.

There are also so many factors which if we take under consideration wouldn't hold up. Sure, you've been training like hell on your surgical skills but did you also learn how to be a great hacker in that time while going on adventures with the rest of your group? I guess you did!

Typically this is magic woo woo powers of some kind, though, so in that context (read: 'this is really a magical transformation/superhero origin/etc.') it doesn't bother me.

Another factor here are common genre tropes; from training montages to revelations in dreams, depending on the kind of game these sudden bursts of insight would be more... appropriate.

[Coin]

Something not enough games do which would be really sweet: time skips. Might also help with the plausibility of stuff.

[Arkandel]

@coin said in Respecs.:

Something not enough games do which would be really sweet: time skips. Might also help with the plausibility of stuff.

I've considered that, but it's just hard to coordinate for everyone. A time skip might be awesome for me right now but maybe you're in a different IC situation?

Handwaving stuff is a great thing. Yer a doctor, Harry!

[Coin]

@arkandel said in Respecs.:

@coin said in Respecs.:

Something not enough games do which would be really sweet: time skips. Might also help with the plausibility of stuff.

I've considered that, but it's just hard to coordinate for everyone. A time skip might be awesome for me right now but maybe you're in a different IC situation?

Handwaving stuff is a great thing. Yer a doctor, Harry!

"Guys, we're time-skipping in a month, make sure to get all your shit together. Thanks."

[faraday]

@arkandel said in Respecs.:

There are also so many factors which if we take under consideration wouldn't hold up. Sure, you've been training like hell on your surgical skills but did you also learn how to be a great hacker in that time while going on adventures with the rest of your group? I guess you did!

There's no universal yardstick for suspension of disbelief. You can pick any popular TV show, which obviously is beloved by millions, and still find a ton of people who look at it like: "OMG this is so ludicrous I can't watch this drivel."

And people have different suspension of disbelief levels for different things. Somebody might be put off by ludicrous wound-recovery times but not by learning times (or vice versa). Everybody has their own individual hot buttons, and people are all-too-quick to dismiss somebody else's hot button with "it's just a game" while getting all bent out of shape when somebody else does something they don't like.

[surreality]

@arkandel said in Respecs.:

Another factor here are common genre tropes; from training montages to revelations in dreams, depending on the kind of game these sudden bursts of insight would be more... appropriate.

Not gonna lie, I picture almost any XP spend as having its very own cheesy 80s style montage sequence.

I have seriously considered (albeit, for the parody game concept) requiring NOT a justification for spends, but that people submit a song for their 'I learned a thing' montage.

...even with learn times and all the rest I may do this anyway if I do a thing, not as a requirement, but as a generic fun dorky whatnot. Because fun dorky whatnots are fun when they're optional, and I think the fun to be had from silly little bits of characterization like this are vastly underrated on the whole.

[Coin]

@surreality said in Respecs.:

@arkandel said in Respecs.:

Another factor here are common genre tropes; from training montages to revelations in dreams, depending on the kind of game these sudden bursts of insight would be more... appropriate.

Not gonna lie, I picture almost any XP spend as having its very own cheesy 80s style montage sequence.

I have seriously considered (albeit, for the parody game concept) requiring NOT a justification for spends, but that people submit a song for their 'I learned a thing' montage.

...even with learn times and all the rest I may do this anyway if I do a thing, not as a requirement, but as a generic fun dorky whatnot. Because fun dorky whatnots are fun when they're optional, and I think the fun to be had from silly little bits of characterization like this are vastly underrated on the whole.

First person to use "Eye of the Tiger" for a Brawl raise gets banned.

[surreality]

@coin Unless they do it via this gif.

Then they get a badge or something. And possibly all my love forever for embracing the dorky cheeseball spirit of things.

[WildBaboons]

My bigguest issue with time delay on going up is that I just forget to put in my xp spends. with skill based systems that don't force you to do it like level based systems do I tend to get a big pile of XP, notice it, spend it, then accumulate another giant pile.

[Misadventure]

Time to increase a rating, and time delay after xp spend do not have to be linked.

One could keep track of training time available and then allow it to be spent like a necessary but not sufficient supplementary XP. The time delays seemed to be designed as a catch up for training time, and very specifically for preventing purchases to counter a brand new conflict.

I personally keep track of the things (stats, powers, whatever) that I would double check, and the things I don't much care about (save that everyone get the same level of not caring about those stats applied to them).

[surreality]

@misadventure It's probably also possible to queue up a spend to handle concerns like the one @WildBaboons mentions.

As in, you could put 'raise basketweaving' into a queue, which holds the raise in reserve until the timer's through and you have enough points to cover it.

Could even potentially have a 'spend XP now? y/n' to cover it in advance, and it just processes it at the first available time, otherwise wait until that time has passed and the points are available, then it processes it.

Could potentially have something like a +pending command or similar so people can check the progress of whatever they've queued, and potential remove things from the list/etc.

[Thenomain]

I’m with @faraday: I want the world the character exsists in to be consistent and natural for its internal rules. Respecs and XP catch-up mechanics break this.

On the original Darkwater, because there was XP catch-up we had to have respecs, else people coming in would be able to minmax while the older characters could not. Most people were responsible with it, but it made for a difficult time all around.

[ThatGuyThere]

@surreality said in Respecs.:

Not gonna lie, I picture almost any XP spend as having its very own cheesy 80s style montage sequence.

Feng Shui first edition requires that the player describe the training montage he player goes through to certain new things.

[surreality]

@thatguythere That is pretty much the idea. Though on the sliiiiiiightly more (and less, let's be real here, I'm talking about soundtrack fodder) 'no, I'm not completely kidding' front, I kinda hate justifications (which strike me as being more like a standard montage writeup), but like the idea of a 'montage theme song'. It's a little more about mood and mindset and, well, vibe. Which is a little more what helps build a character than a laundry list of how many pounds of sand they pounded or how many wooden posts they kicked, and so on.

The justification approach I would liken to 'write a chronological background'.

The 'come up with a themesong for your wacky montage' thing I'd liken to 'write up your general character concept'.

One's more about the journalistic 'who, when, where, what, why', and the other is more about feel and personality.

I'd never stop someone from writing a traditional background or justification if they wanted to do that for their own reference and it fits the way they process things about their character better, and it'd probably get the same perk (if any) as the vibe approach, but I get a better idea of what the character went through or how they felt about it, how it changed them, etc. from something a little more evocative and abstract. It may be weird, but I'm strangely OK with that.

[ThatGuyThere]

@surreality
Well for a sound track there can only be one acceptable song for an 80s training montage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F2i6EQsPZY

[surreality]

@thatguythere That could ultimately lead to the funniest wiki page ever, full of training montage theme songs. Dammit... more reasons to maybe do something. Fun's a thing, and silly helps, dangit. (A little silly goes a long way toward keeping pretendy fun time games perspective, building community spirit, blah blah blah, but it's true.)

[faraday]

@thenomain said in Respecs.:

I want the world the character exsists in to be consistent and natural for its internal rules.

Yeah that's a good way to put it. It's not that I want to make things un-fun for people, I just want to have a sense of verisimilitude in the IC world. I'm not saying it has to be a documentary because duh. But if you throw in too much implausibility then I just don't know how my character's supposed to react to it, and that's not fun for me.

It's kind of like when people on a historical game ask for historical accuracy. There has to be a balance. Too much and everybody's dying of dysentery on the Oregon Trail. Too little and it's like you're not playing a Western any more you're just doing "Hollywood dress-up". Finding the right balance is tricky, and finding a balance that everyone will agree on is impossible.

[Thenomain]

@faraday said in Respecs.:

It's kind of like when people on a historical game ask for historical accuracy. There has to be a balance. Too much and everybody's dying of dysentery on the Oregon Trail.

Ob XKCD:

[Jennkryst]

A couple of things!

1. This shows the WoD-centric mindset of the Soapbox (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), because some games have the idea of respecs built into them - FATE for sure, and I think Eclipse Phase, as well? Possibly others!
2. While proficiency does drop off with lack of practice, it can be presumed that you can pick it up again far quicker than someone who never had proficiency before - you likely won't have to break yourself of bad habits like the first time around.
3. Since most games follow ACTION MOVIE logic more than REALITY SIMULATION logic, the training montage (as mentioned above) is a thing... OR you could just James Bond it. Never been shown flying a plane before? Oh, I knew how to all along!
4. Following #3, this is why Mummy: the Curse is the best damn thing ever. Their version of Humanity is called Memory. Increasing it literally lets them remember more of their past. Similarly... every attribute, skill, and power, along with most merits... is something you could always do. But you forgot how, until JUST NOW when you spent the XP to remember.

tldr: Respecs are totes fine.