criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong

[bored]

@thenomain said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

Is this where we've gotten to in this hobby? On the Internet? Where one person says "I hate this thing!" and everyone who doesn't hate that thing has to defend it to the death?

Did you just discover the internet or something?

MSB has always been this way although I think maybe what you're noticing now is that... we're old and the factions are solidified and/or there are some very specific tribes of players attached to particular systems (ie WoD), games (past or present), codebases, etc. I could point out that you're part of one of those tribes yourself.

So the mobs will exist. The only place it really matters is in terms of the mods taking that sort of 'public opinion' as having any meaning. Which is why (bringing this thread back to topic) we do want guarantees of being able to voice criticisms without being shouted down by the cheerleader squad for any particular game, just as much as we want safeguards against mob attacks being too vicious in non-designated areas.

[Thenomain]

@paris

Oh I know I'm suffering. I don't lash out when I'm not suffering. Sometimes that suffering is the pressure of people on a game casting me in a bad light and not helping me out. (Not that it's their responsibility, but it just makes it worse.)

This is why I beat myself up. I know when I'm a shit-heel. I'm not smart enough to know why it happens, not aware enough to know how to stop it. It's like asking a shy person to stop being shy. I'm sure that cripplingly shy people know they are cripplingly shy. This is not a revelation. But you don't tell someone who's shy that they're not being shunned, it's 100% them, because instead you have sympathy for them, understanding.

This is why I've been mocking the dogpile. I know my anger, and I try to use it for good. I try to help people who are stuck. (And feel silly when the dogpile is right.) When I derail threads with "NO U!!!" or "Yeah, you guys", it's because the person I'm mocking is trying to stifle conversation.

In my older age I'm realizing how much of my life has been suffering from myself. But is this going to help if I tell you? Or KQ? No. In fact, the main criticism from SL staff was that I was putting this on them. This was not intended, and not desired, but because Spirit Lake is made in part of Arx insiders, that this is how the Arxers see me now isn't a surprise.

My unreasonable pain, my occasional spazzing, my Year of the Dog loyalty, my fighting for understanding, for open and honest communication, these are things that are up to people I know to either come to accept or not.

None of this makes it okay, but it's very, very human.

[Paris]

@thenomain You have my shoulder if you need it, and my goodwill even if you don't. I've never taken your needling personally.

[Thenomain]

@paris said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@thenomain You have my shoulder if you need it, and my goodwill even if you don't. I've never taken your needling personally.

Thank you.

Because I take everything personally.

[Meg]

@thenomain said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

Spirit Lake is made in part of Arx insiders

I feel the need to correct this, at least. Of the two head staffers on SL, one never played Arx. One has played Arx intermittently? The storytelling staffer has never played Arx. Maybe you could call the two AppStaffers and some of the players Arx insiders, sure, depending on your definition.

(Like do I count as an Arx insider? idk, I definitely don't feel like it.)

[Apos]

@misadventure said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@apos I can confirm there are several people, myself included, who no longer find it productive to even mention criticisms about games you and Hellfrog are involved in. Those players either attempt to avoid your attention or opt not to play games you have significant say in.

Is that something you should consider?

Sure but I'm not involved in any games but Arx. I didn't know anything about Spirit Lake until this its ad thread was posted, and I do not have time for other games. I think if they are avoiding Spirit Lake because they mistakenly thought I was involved when I'm not says more about them than it does about me.

[Thenomain]

@meg said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@thenomain said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

Spirit Lake is made in part of Arx insiders

I feel the need to correct this, at least. Of the two head staffers on SL, one never played Arx.

As Apos said, the situation immediately made its way to Arx. There's clearly a strong connection between the games, even if in its players or socially between the key players on both sides. The point being that grape vines go through game cultures and the people who play them. And culture informs responses.

[Meg]

@thenomain sure. As I said, if you want to say that Spirit Lake's playerbase is made from some high-profile Arx players, that is fair. I won't disagree. I just think the way you worded it made it sound like staff was shared between the games and I wanted to fix that impression.

[Thenomain]

@meg

Nope. Just to say there's a nontrivial link.

[Arkandel]

@bored said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

So the mobs will exist. The only place it really matters is in terms of the mods taking that sort of 'public opinion' as having any meaning. Which is why (bringing this thread back to topic) we do want guarantees of being able to voice criticisms without being shouted down by the cheerleader squad for any particular game, just as much as we want safeguards against mob attacks being too vicious in non-designated areas.

A couple of things about that.

For starters there are no guarantees anyone won't be shouted down by someone else. The only question is whether it's personal (which outside of the Hog Pit is not acceptable) and if those shouts are correct - a lot of the time people who are quite eager to point fingers and raise hell about others prove to be much better about dishing it out than taking it when the table turns.

But also - and this is frustrating for me - this is not WORA. WORA has been dead for many years, it was being ran by different people, had different rules and it existed in a different time. I will take any criticism at all at face value but, dammit, please don't throw that in my face; it's like me complaining about something @Goldfish is doing in Echoes in the Mists by referencing the shitty things staff did in Haunted Memories.

Of course a lot of us carry baggage. Some have enmities going back a long time and there are definitely multiple cliques carried over from MU* both active and long gone. But we are also adults, dammit, and we can own our own shit; we can change if we decide to, we can improve if someone points out a way to do it and now and then we can say "okay, sure, I don't like you but I was out of line there and I'm sorry".

I have a lot of fun chatting with you people about all sorts of random shit, both MU* related and otherwise. I would miss many of you, including some I'm pretty sure don't care for me very much, if we didn't hang out somewhere much like MSB, if for no other reason than at the very least you all understand where I'm coming from.

I've spent too much time in this weird hobby and the only people who can really relate to it are you all.

[bored]

@arkandel I dunno what I'm 'throwing in your face' or blaming on you, precisely? This stuff is old and cultural and if anything my view is you have little power to affect any of it.

Beyond that, I don't know how you even begin to imagine you can determine if anything is 'correct.' Mostly, that tends to come down to 'I like/agree with the person shouting / and or dislike the target,' which is obviously a pretty dubious measure. Even more, I don't know that correctness matters for what I'm talking about. Even if you reach the conclusion that, say, in this case the game staff was 'right' and theno was whatever version of not-right, there's clearly some sentiment that the combination of overbearing 'this game is awesome' from a clear cheer squad combined with 'do not criticize' was problematic. So I don't know that you can really moderate on correctness. You can aim at making sure there are both constructive and non-constructive avenues that people are free to use (which now maybe you're in the process of doing? if so great).

Re: being adults, the issue is that everyone has to do it, all the time, regardless of being 'correct,' which is another reason I think that's a bad word to hang on. That means giving up behaviors basically all of us (me and you included) clearly enjoy, a lot of the 'venting' function of the board, etc.

[Doozer]

Let's not remove the upvote button because the alternative will be upvote gifs. And I will use them.. hard.

[Rucket]

@doozer said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

Let's not remove the upvote button because the alternative will be upvote gifs. And I will use them.. hard.

[Kanye Qwest]

@arkandel said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

heno's, or Arx staff's

FOR ONCE no one was talking about Arx, and you ruined it. You ruined it!

[Thenomain]

@rucket said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@doozer said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

Let's not remove the upvote button because the alternative will be upvote gifs. And I will use them.. hard.

[Thenomain]

@kanye-qwest said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@arkandel said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

heno's, or Arx staff's

FOR ONCE no one was talking about Arx, and you ruined it. You ruined it!

I tried!*

* (no I didn't)

[Too Old For This]

@thenomain said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@rucket said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@doozer said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

Let's not remove the upvote button because the alternative will be upvote gifs. And I will use them.. hard.

[Auspice]

@too-old-for-this said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@thenomain said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@rucket said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@doozer said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

Let's not remove the upvote button because the alternative will be upvote gifs. And I will use them.. hard.

[silverfox]

I am going to reply to the main gist of this thread.

Honestly, I would prefer if the Ads thread was limited to the ad, questions, and answers. When I am shopping for a new game (which I didn't know I could DO till soapbox, so yes, people do come here to find games!) I don't really want to know people's opinions.

I would personally love to believe everyone farts rainbows and learn otherwise myself, then confirm with my friends if it is me or them.

Just my two cents.

[Too Old For This]

@auspice said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@too-old-for-this said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@thenomain said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@rucket said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

@doozer said in criticism not allowed in ad threads is only enforcing a false positive, prove me wrong:

Let's not remove the upvote button because the alternative will be upvote gifs. And I will use them.. hard.