I also have this issue, rather than having particularly helpful advice. I scale back and disengage, myself -- when I start feeling that way, it's basically the dark herald of complete burnout. So I go play video games where it literally doesn't matter whether or not people like or just tolerate me and pretend to laugh at my jokes, because it's not going to impact my experience in any real way. Basically I go sleep it off, creatively.I just hold on until it passes.
SOLIDARITY
I dont have anything else to add right now, but... myself also.
I don't know how helpful this bit of advice is, because it's very circumstantial, but I used to have this problem and I don't have it any more. The honest truth of what helped me? No, I didn't have any kind of epiphany. I just got medicated.
You might not need medication in your specific case — I hardly know you — but a question I have would be: does this only apply to your RP circles? Or is this a persistent problem in your life? If you're constantly talking down to yourself, experiencing social anxiety and unable to accept the idea that anyone might possibly be able to enjoy your company, then please, don't ignore the signs of an obstacle to your mental health. It's a medical issue like any other. Society has for too long been telling people that they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps if only they would just think positive and remember that this is all in their head, and shaming them if they can't do that. It's a load of bullcrap. Chemical imbalances in your brain don't disappear after making a few life-affirming statements.
I suppose I'll undercut all that though and share a life-affirming statement I do like to make (supplemented by a trio of pills and a therapist who tells me off for being rude to myself) whenever I run into other people who, for whatever reason, just don't seem to like me:
Other people's bullshit does not reflect on you.
Someone's gonna give you attitude or look down their nose at you when you're just trying to make friends, that's their bullshit. Their attitude. Their problem. Maybe their mother died or has cancer or something, what do I know? Maybe they were picked on at school and never really got over it. But it has absolutely nothing to do with me, I just happened to be in their way.
And then you shrug, move on about your day, and remember it isn't your job to fix broken people, nor worry about whatever's bothering them. You just keep doing your thing.
Oh. Also, since you're a woman, I'm just gonna leave this here since you probably have this issue. Fix it. We all do.
@Cupcake said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
Our game culture abhors attention-seekers and rightfully so. That kind of play style is selfish.
I don't think these are accurate statements.
I think our game culture abhors attention-seekers who hog the spotlight to the detriment of others. I think our game culture craves attention-seekers who use the attention to facilitate the RP of others.
Players tend to gravitate towards the players who can spontaneously-generate RP through their own characters because, for the most part, it's easier to be receptive than creative. But it's very hard for me not to see creative-scions, who are the hub of RP, as being anything but attention-seeking.
Our game culture hates assholes and degenerates. It venerates creatives and humorists. And, in my opinion, these are all "attention-seekers" in one way or another.
By saying this, I mean to encourage the sort of attention-grabbing creativity, rather than cause these creatives to stop and reconsider whether they are creating too much.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
@Ganymede Everyone loves the quarterback who will throw them the ball. Everyone dislikes the quarterback who keeps it for themselves.
@silverfox said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
@Apos said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
It is simple. Don't think too much about your own character.
^^^ That, that, that.
Doesn’t. Work. Half. The. Time.
Sorry but it doesn’t. It is not a trivial thing for some people (for me people, but I’m not alone here) to just adjust to the group. If the group is being open then you go with the flow and it’s fun, but tell me if this has never happened to you:
[Appropriate Channel] You: Hey, what’s going on?
[Appropriate Channel] <silence>
There are other ways to try to insinuate yourself into scenes and groups, but there is a certain point where you give up, where you wonder if the problem is you, and if it is you what you can do about it. Welcome to the entryway to anxiety and depression, and if you don’t understand this then I am deeply, painfully jealous.
You say “That, that, that,” and I sigh, “No, no, no.” There is no easy solution, because the problem is partially about self-loathing, and pattern-finding, and otherwise sensible logic being applied where it shouldn’t. It’s not simple. God we wish it was.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Double Post Theatre!
@Ganymede said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
Our game culture hates assholes and degenerates.
Does it? Because there is no reason an asshole can’t also be generating events. I can think of quite a few assholes that people tolerated or even flocked to in a sort of cult of personality situation. VASpider isn’t even at the top of that list.
We have gotten better than the previous decade, more self-confident, more willing to let others in, but the degenerate still exists, the asshole still thrives. It’s been a short while since I’ve seen a popular game run by a PHB (Psycho Hose-Beast), and I’ll take that for as long as it lasts.
I agree with and like your sentiments otherwise, but this one cried out for correction.f
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@Thenomain said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
PHB (Psycho House-Beast)
Here's a term that should go back to the 90s. And then the 90s should go to jail.
@Kanye-Qwest said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
@Thenomain said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
PHB (Psycho House-Beast)
Here's a term that should go back to the 90s. And then the 90s should go to jail.
Hah, House-Beast. Editing it to Hose-Beast.
Also, why?
Edit: Looked it up out of curiosity. Never knew it had a female use. I’ve always used it gender-neutral.
“Absolute Fucking Basket Case”, then.
“Control Freak With No Self-Control”, perhaps.
@Thenomain said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
@silverfox said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
@Apos said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
It is simple. Don't think too much about your own character.
^^^ That, that, that.
Doesn’t. Work. Half. The. Time.
Sorry but it doesn’t. It is not a trivial thing for some people (for me people, but I’m not alone here) to just adjust to the group.
I actually need to agree with Thenomain (for his points, yes, but also for something else). Just the other day, @Apos, you made a post in the Gripes thread about people assuming IC strife was for OOC reasons.
This is why people can and do think too much about their character. It's why I have, before. It's why I've hesitated on the enter key on an action I know my character would take because those voices flare up in my head and I think: 'would this person be mad at me? I don't know them, at all, but... are they going to get angry OOC? Are they going to think I hate them? Is this going to make them run to Staff?'
Because of situations like the one Apos vented about, sometimes we anxious people do think a lot about our characters. I lean pretty heavily on friends to not only read over poses, IC communications, and IC plans... but also to push me to do them. The anxiety is always worse with people I don't know.
So I don't think that advice really works, unfortunately. Speaking as a major anxiety-sufferer. The 'don't think too much about your own character' sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work in practice. What does work?
Trust your friends. And I mean friends. The people who have been there through thick and thin. The people who have proven themselves. The ones that aren't selfish. The ones that will tell you how it is. The ones who can take the truth themselves without breaking down. If they tell you yes, go for it: go for it. If they tell you that you're going too far, pull back.
But the anxiety monster is a very multi-layered thing and it is a master of prediction and multi-tasking and it will lay out every goddamn possible scenario for you and then FREAK OUT ABOUT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. So any 'don't think about' or 'calm down' or 'forget about the small things' ... these don't work. But 'trust in the people that have proven themselves' - this one does. At least for me. Even if sometimes they have to kick me in the ass to move on an action that I should take for the betterment of my character.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@Auspice said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
Trust your friends. And I mean friends. The people who have been there through thick and thin. The people who have proven themselves. The ones that aren't selfish. The ones that will tell you how it is. The ones who can take the truth themselves without breaking down. If they tell you yes, go for it: go for it. If they tell you that you're going too far, pull back.
As a deeply anxious and self-loathing person, I agree with Theno and Auspice. Except that I don't have these kinds of friends so I guess I'm shit out of luck lol
@Auspice All of that. 
Rising doubt and anxiety had straight up murdered one or two relationships in this hobby for me. Once the monster convinces you that you are trash and that is why X or Y is happening, it's all downhill. And Goldfish says and does stupid shit. I take full responsibility but I know now that it's not me being crazy, it's anxiety hacking my GPS and telling me all the wrong directions.
@Kanye-Qwest ...at least, thankfully, with few exceptions (eta: I'm thinkin' Vault Girl and Elsa here), we haven't seen much of this since happening in the hobby since the 90s, either. So I'm all for leaving the term and what it represented in the rear view, and am glad things are moving in that direction on the whole.
@Thenomain said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
It is not a trivial thing for some people (for me people, but I’m not alone here) to just adjust to the group. If the group is being open then you go with the flow and it’s fun, but tell me if this has never happened to you:
[Appropriate Channel] You: Hey, what’s going on?
[Appropriate Channel] <silence>There are other ways to try to insinuate yourself into scenes and groups, but there is a certain point where you give up, where you wonder if the problem is you, and if it is you what you can do about it. Welcome to the entryway to anxiety and depression, and if you don’t understand this then I am deeply, painfully jealous.
I've experienced this also from time to time. Broadly speaking, I find that it's a solid indication that the game itself is not for me. I may suck, it may suck, but ultimately it's not a good fit for me.
This kind of situation -- where you're joining in things but requests to do things turn into a sonata of cricket-chirping -- can very, very easily create the feeling of 'I feel like I'm forcing my presence on people who don't want me here', though.
This isn't something that's exclusively on the person doing the asking, because the people who are truly unfun persona non grata types are very rare in this hobby, though many of us sometimes feel like we're 'that person'.
This is really something that's on all of us. If you wouldn't mind someone joining? Don't just leave it for someone else to pipe up: say so. If you're doing a private scene at the time but would like to do something later? Say that, too -- then there's a reason it's not a yes right now, not just the deathly silence that feelings of doubt and anxiety and self-loathing and so on feed on like it's an all you can eat cheesecake bar. These things make more difference than you might initially think, and they are worth the time.
As an anxiety patient who takes medication ... it may not work for everyone but sometimes the self help style solutions are simply not enough if your brain is that much of a jerk. Don't underestimate how shitty your own brain can make you feel or punish yourself for having disordered thoughts when there are potential constructive options out there for getting help. Gaming is social and a lot of the ways that socially anxious people interact with it are self-defeating.
@saosmash ^ This. I take cymbalta now to handle depression and anxiety and my perma-aches-and-pains. There's xanax for immediate panic attack crises as they emerge. The former has made a world of difference, but it isn't a magic bullet. It doesn't prevent every instance of these feelings or anxieties.
It does, however, help. Immensely.
If you (and I mean generic you reading this thread because you have these same feelings in your life) haven't looked into something like this and the option is available to you, please do so. I'm not saying this from a position of 'go fix yourself, you're broken', but from here: I am so grateful these things have helped me and I hope that if you need help with the same kind of problems, you may be able to find an option that helps you, too.
It helps reduce the frequency and somehow it has helped me to identify it more when it is happening, somehow, than before I was on meds, and made it easier for me to use self help / self care tools. The first step is being aware but that's not the only step. Also "you're just being crazy right now stop it" is the first reaction from me to myself when I am having an issue like this and that is one of the least helpful things you can do. It's more like "I think this valid reaction I am having is being substantially overblown so let's work on finding something else to focus on" or ... idk there are a number of them but it DOES come down to keeping my shit from becoming other people's problems.
The danger of being reliant on your friends is that you can put yourself into a position where you are asking people for reassurance constantly or even just distributing too much emotional labor to people you care about and creating an imbalance in your friendships that are most important to you. I'd never tell anyone not to talk to friends. But therapists are literally paid to help with emotional labor and also are more qualified than most friends.
@saosmash agreed. Or you can be in a situation where you lash out at people who care about you and damage that relationship to the point that they cannot be there for you. I agree that friendships and trust is important and precious. But I have also had people abuse that and use that to the point that was irrevocably broken. Though I am pretty sure almost everyone in mushdom has had that happen at least once.
Nothing works all of the time. I just find that I'm less angry at myself for not being able to be involved if I can find someone else to focus on for a bit. Maybe it's someone I know is a friend/friendly. Maybe it's people that are out in public and I crash.
Last time I felt really crappy I went on a crafting spree and gave everything away and it made me feel okay that I was doing something that made someone else feel better even if it didn't solve my underlying problem.
At least I had a different message running for a little bit.
(Again, it's not always going to work. Nothing always works.)
It is very simple to get people to want to spend time with you, by being extremely generous with your time, and making it be about them, and helping them have fun. It's just the simplest things can be very difficult to do, and require an intense commitment of time and energy.
Think of this way- some of the most utterly toxic, worst examples in the hobby are very popular because they realize this, at a fundamental level, that if they just keep giving and giving their time often to an unhealthy extent, people will appreciate that, and they can use that to then justify the unbelievably shitty things they do afterwards. Someone donating their time and energy is appreciated to such an extent that a large amount of people are willing to overlook truly atrocious behavior.
It's fine to say you don't have the time to invest in things, or you just feel too tired or unmotivated to do so. That's okay. There's no shame at all in that. Just understand that it's a very clear path forward if you ever feel disassociated with a game or RP group or whatever.
some fucking idiot who people only like because he's good at taking credit for the work of everyone under him, just like every other fucking L&L headwiz.
@Apos said in When To Stop Listening To Those Voices:
It's just the simplest things can be very difficult to do
I am partially kidding. Things that are simple to analyze can be very hard to accomplish. “Excuse me sir, how do I get to Carnegie Hall?” / “Quite simply, son; practice!”
On the other hand, if the analysis seems simple then it’s possibly too simple and ignoring, on purpose or through simplicity, important steps.
“Try harder” is often used as a solution, or “relax” or “don’t do that” or “get a job”. As solutions they are demeaning, but there’s a way for the anxious and depressed to make it work: These things aren’t solutions, but they are goals, they are steps. And the thing about goals is that you’re not a bad person if you don’t reach them, as long as tomorrow is better than today.
Not even good. Better. Better is good. Shine on, my fellow crazy diamonds.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
I also have this issue, rather than having particularly helpful advice. I scale back and disengage, myself -- when I start feeling that way, it's basically the dark herald of complete burnout. So I go play video games where it literally doesn't matter whether or not people like or just tolerate me and pretend to laugh at my jokes, because it's not going to impact my experience in any real way. Basically I go sleep it off, creatively.I just hold on until it passes.
