What do you eat?

[Ghost]

How about we keep this thread to the OP's topic of food, cost of, etc and keep all of the race and privilege talk to the politics board or a separate thread?

I'm 100% interested in talking about food, veganism, eating on a budget, etc.

I'm -1000000% interested in competing over who best understands privilege and racial issues while trying to discuss veganism, food, and eating on a budget.

Edit: Shit. I just read @Arkandel first post and it says "social" issues. Looks like I am understanding the thread wrong. Carry on. Without me, alas, but carry on. But I think a non-political thread about eating on a budget, diet support, etc (not connected to the mental health thread) thread would be cool.

[Sunny]

@Kestrel

'Misconception that it's privledged' is why I got upset, because it isn't a misconception.

ETA: the misconception is that it is solely food cost alone that makes it a privilege

[Kestrel]

@mietze said in What do you eat?:

Also, the idea that people will choose to live on subsistence/most inexpensive staples if they don't have to is not really a correct one. That has been proven time and again. While I appreciate veganism, lean towards plant based diets myself quite happily, I really wish that line of preaching would go away because jfc that edges really close to a "noble savage" type of thing that is just gross. And unnecessary.

I'm not sure I understand this?

If you want to live on cheap vegan food, that's easily accomplished. If you want to live on cheap meaty/dairy food, that's also easily accomplished. Buy bulk TVP (textured vegetable protein), rice & beans, frozen produce, or bulk mince meat from the frozen aisle.

If you prefer to live on extravagant, luxury vegan food, that's also an option — shop at Whole Foods and order gourmet swiss vegan cheeses, I guess. If you prefer to live on extravagant, luxury meat/dairy food, that's also an option — eat steak, prosciutto and lobster.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Sunny said in What do you eat?:

@Kestrel

'Misconception that it's privledged' is why I got upset, because it isn't a misconception.

ETA: the misconception is that it is solely food cost alone that makes it a privilege

The ability to have plenty of food that makes up a healthy diet (any type of diet) is a privilege, yes?

[Sunny]

@Kanye-Qwest

Yes, but it is easier to do the fewer limits you put on it, and getting some nutrients is better than less than some. Vitamin E is heavily supplemented into most of our milk supply, for example. Because it is hard, otherwise, to get it. Cutting milk out means a need to get E another way, which for inner city living can be nearly impossible. Not as big a problem down south maybe, but up here where people are chronically deficient because we can't make our own (no sun!), it's a big deal. And there are a million other examples like this one.

[Kestrel]

@Sunny said in What do you eat?:

@Kestrel

'Misconception that it's privledged' is why I got upset, because it isn't a misconception.

ETA: the misconception is that it is solely food cost alone that makes it a privilege

OK, let me amend.

Choice, of all and any kind, in any context, is and always will be a privilege.

For those who have geographical access, physical ability and the mental capacity (vs. depression meals, eating disorder recovery, work/life schedules) to make choices regarding what they eat, and can rely on more than simply what's available, I make the case that choosing veganism is no more tied to privilege than any other conscious dietary choice.

Some people are unable to make conscious choices about what they eat or feed their families. Any post I make advocating to choose veganism does not apply to these people. (Though I do, incidentally, make the case that limits on these people's choices is frequently the consequence of systemic issues in our global food distribution and resource management, with animal agriculture one of the biggest culprits. The other is capitalism and food waste.)

[Kanye Qwest]

@Sunny peanuts and canola oil are both high in vitamin e, and George Washington Carver specifically worked with peanuts because he thought they were a good staple food for people needing affordable nutrition.

[Sunny]

@Kanye-Qwest

Which comes back around to my education point. I am not saying it isn't possible to do. I am saying it is hard. I am not saying it is bad (it is good! I encourage it if it works.for you and your family!). I am saying it's hard.

[Kestrel]

@Sunny said in What do you eat?:

@Kanye-Qwest

Yes, but it is easier to do the fewer limits you put on it, and getting some nutrients is better than less than some. Vitamin E is heavily supplemented into most of our milk supply, for example. Because it is hard, otherwise, to get it. Cutting milk out means a need to get E another way, which for inner city living can be nearly impossible. Not as big a problem down south maybe, but up here where people are chronically deficient because we can't make our own (no sun!), it's a big deal. And there are a million other examples like this one.

Non-dairy milk is generally fortified to have exactly the same nutritional value as dairy milk, and in fact superior, both as a selling point and because it doesn't contain the known carcinogens found in dairy milk, or drugs and antibioitcs fed to cattle, not to mention the naturally occurring casomorphins which make dairy literally addictive.

The only commercial non-dairy milks that aren't fortified are those specifically marketed as organic. You can also make your own non-dairy milk at home if you have a blender, literally just mixing water with nuts/oats. I don't, because I prefer the fortified stuff from the supermarket.

If your supermarket doesn't stock non-dairy milk I totally get it and have sympathy. But if it does, the nutritional argument isn't true.

There are many studies proving the health benefits of a plant-based diet; lower risks of chronic diseases, longer life expectancy (see research on the Blue Zones) etc.

If anyone wants me to link sources I can do so, otherwise you can google and verify everything I'm saying.

@Sunny I just don't think it's hard. I think it's a misconception that it's hard because people don't know just how easy and available the required nutrients in vegan food are.

But that's why I like informing people. Because if it wasn't obvious by now, I'm very passionate about it, and helping people — who are interested — is something I love to do.

[Kestrel]

@Kanye-Qwest said in What do you eat?:

@Sunny peanuts and canola oil are both high in vitamin e, and George Washington Carver specifically worked with peanuts because he thought they were a good staple food for people needing affordable nutrition.

Seeded wholegrain toast + peanut butter is my go-to depression meal.

[Sunny]

@Kestrel

Ok. I mean, that's fine that you disagree. Non-dairy milk at my grocery is $6 per gallon, vs $2.50.

[GreenFlashlight]

I am not yet vegetarian, but I'll have to start working on it until a president is elected who believes meat should be inspected.

[Ganymede]

@Kestrel

What about allergies? I am allergic to nuts and legumes. This precludes a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle, as far as I can tell.

If you’ve research to prove otherwise, I’d like to make a change. Also, I live non-carb.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Ganymede i mean if you don't eat carbs and you are allergic to nuts and legumes there isn't a lot you can do that's going to be filling (salad forever?) but also I am sorry for your life. Carbs are the best.

[eye8urcake]

@Sunny said in What do you eat?:

@Kestrel

As politely as possible, it is not a misconception that it is privileged. That video in no way changes the reality of inner city living, or even, say, the assumption that people can stream YouTube videos. It requires special attention to diet that requires an education about nutrients that the body needs to avoid getting sick from malnutrition and all.of that shit. There is way way way way way way way more to it than 'you can buy enough not meat to eat for a week for cheap SOMEWHERE'. Irresponsible.

Or RURAL living, weirdly enough. You can't even special order a lot of the things you need to have an animal-free diet where I live. Buying by Internet is not something my budget can sustain, so yeah, have to second @Sunny here in that it really does matter where you are and how much you can spend, because good fucking luck getting the more specialized stuff when your stores don't even manage to keep BROCCOLI on the shelves with any consistency.

[Kestrel]

@Ganymede said in What do you eat?:

@Kestrel

What about allergies? I am allergic to nuts and legumes. This precludes a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle, as far as I can tell.

If you’ve research to prove otherwise, I’d like to make a change. Also, I live non-carb.

I concede it'd be pretty difficult to make balanced vegan meals with a nut + legume allergy because that's my main protein source, personally.

Can I ask why you live non-carb? If it's for health reasons, I know the keto movement is based on some really bad science. People who eat three or more servings of wholegrains a day live longer, have slimmer waistlines, lower blood pressure, and lower incidences of heart disease and type 2 diabetes. (Source 1, Source 2) The effect of adding whole grains to a heart patient's diet has been found to be even more effective than statins and other commonly prescribed drugs.

Carbs are good for you. Though it's worth making the distinction between highly processed simple starches vs. complex carbs, fruits and vegetables, which are full of beneficial phytonutrients.

I recommend the Netflix documentaries What the Health and Forks Over Knives for a basic primer. Also the books The China Study and How Not to Die. Both are authored by medical doctors and nutrition experts who have conducted extensive research on the topic; and both include an extensive bibliography section for the sources.

In terms of why animal products are bad for you, the most comprehensive study on the topic (that I know about) is the aptly named EPIC study. (European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition.) It followed more than half a million participants from 10 European countries over 15 years and crunched the numbers on a fairly wide variety of topics. It would be quite exhaustive to link them all but here are a few choice selections:

• Meat, poultry and fish and risk of bowel cancer
• Meat consumption and mortality
• Meat and fish consumption and risk of pancreatic cancer

One thing I found interesting about the EPIC study is that it proved that all animal protein, and not just processed red meat as is often the fixation, raises the risk of chronic diseases and shortens life expectancy across the board. This includes poultry, fish and dairy.

The China Study did something similar focusing on Eastern populations. It was funded in joint by Oxford University, Cornell University and the Government of China in the 1980s. Because the EPIC study is more recent, I generally prefer to cite that, but the China Study really paved the way and remains one of the most important nutritional studies of its time, or IMO, any time.

Research in the Blue Zones, such as the Okinawa Centenarian Study, has also provided groundbreaking results worth looking into. (Comprehensive study on the topic.) "Blue Zones" is a term for various regions across the globe where humans live longer than anywhere else, specifically to over 100 years old. These include Okinawa, Japan; Sardinia, Italy; Nicoya, Costa Rica; Icaria, Greece; and the Seventh Day Adventists of Loma Linda, California. These areas are not necessarily wealthier than other parts of the world, or even local counterparts. In some cases, it's in fact their isolation from the rest of the world that has in a sense "protected" them from assimilating unhealthier global trends and helped preserve their healthier cultural habits. Some common factors were found across these populations, and not all of them are dietary: a strong emphasis on local community, approximately 30 minutes of light exercise a day (such as communal dancing and brisk walking); and of the dietary factors, not all are related to vegetarianism. Across the board they all place emphasis on the importance of eating fermented food, have a relatively low caloric intake, and so for example Okinawan gut microbiomes are significantly more diverse than those of Western populations. (See also: more general source on probiotics and longevity.) But the fact that all Blue Zones also happen to be largely vegan, vegetarian, or pescetarian (with typically less than 2% of calories coming from meat/fish) can't be playing a small part.

In recent years as Okinawan diets have become more Westernised and meat/fish intake has increased, the life expectancy of younger generations has shortened. (Source.)

So that's the science. There is a lot more. It would take more than just one essay to point by point extol the benefits of eating antioxidant-rich foods (which meat/dairy are not), obtaining a diverse array of phytonutrients from a rainbow of fruits and vegetables, and fostering a healthy gut biome through high intake of fibre-rich and fermented foods. (Note also that intake of meat/dairy is detrimental to the health & diversity of the gut biome.) There are therefore many books and publications on the subject, the best two of which I've linked above.

In your case maybe instead of considering a shift towards veganism/vegetarianism, it would be better to focus on reducing meat/dairy intake where viable. Oat, rice, coconut, hemp and flax milks are allergen-free alternatives to dairy. Oat milk is also super easy to make at home (literally just blitz up water and oats). Flax milk is probably the healthiest option because it's very rich in brain-boosting omega-3 fatty acids (specifically it helps to preserve grey matter in ageing adults) and has anti-inflammatory properties. It also contains lignan which has been shown to fight/prevent breast cancer. Lignan is just one of many poorly understood phytonutrients that are more essential for human health than previously realised; micro, not macronutrients, are really the cornerstone of modern nutrition. The very basic gist of that is that it's important to make sure you're getting nutritional bang for your buck out of every calorie, and not just counting them and calling it a day. (Brief primer on the topic.)

The main source of protein I can think of that would theoretically not trigger an allergic reaction for you would be various seeds. You could sprinkle them on a salad, in soups, etc. They'll be more affordable if you buy them in bulk packages from Amazon, which is what I do. You can also make/buy seed butters, tahini, etc., but I can empathise that this would on the whole be difficult to subsist on. Apart from that, seitan and quorn I think are allergen-free, and can be used as meat substitutes — but tend to be more expensive.

[Rinel]

@Kestrel said in What do you eat?:

This is a cookbook I own; I bought it in New Orleans where I also ate at an extremely cheap, local-favourite vegan diner called Sweet Soulfood in the Tremé neighbourhood. I recommend using the "look inside" feature to see what the author has to say about embracing veganism as a reclamation of his African heritage from the malnutritious effects white colonialism has had on his communities, and the disproportionate impact Western cuisine has on black people in America, who have higher incidences of chronic disease such as diabetes and various heart conditions.

It's also a thing that hasn't been accepted widely by the black community in the South, and I don't think it's appropriate at all for white people to be telling black people how to eat ethically.

It's very important to distinguish between veganism and vegetarianism. Vegetarianism has an ancient history. Veganism, in contrast, has only been possible since the 20th century (when it was invented), because a vegan diet will cause fatal B12 deficiency without supplementation that was impossible to provide through vegan means until then.

[Derp]

@Rinel said in What do you eat?:

because a vegan diet will cause fatal B12 deficiency without supplementation that was impossible to provide through vegan means until then.

This is my issue with a lot of this.

I mean, yes, we can cite studies, but frankly, the sheer number of controls that would need to be accounted for and the lack of strict laboratory conditions make me sketchy about their results. There are just too many competing things outside of diet in many of those studies that can account for some of this, and not enough talk about those types of things. Air and water quality, sources of stressors, genetic sensitivities, etc.

But primarily, nobody is ever going to sell me on the idea that human beings, creatures designed to require amino acids and such from animals that we cannot manufacture, is somehow better off eating a completely vegan diet, because it goes against basically everything we know about basic biochemistry. Not to mention the fact that in order to do it long-term and in a healthy way it is extremely cost-ineffective, no matter how much veg you can throw together in a week.

[surreality]

Not vegetarian, here. Have tried. Became brutally ill despite doing so under a qualified nutritionist's guidance.

Still avoid using animal products when there's a reasonable substitute, more evident in the work I do than what I eat: switched to dyework on cellulose fibers (rayon, tencel, cotton) almost exclusively, and appreciate that people appreciate that.

I live in an area where the organic versions of things/etc. are very much priced up outside of farmer's market season (typically 2-5x as expensive, sometimes even more). This is non-enjoyable. It's not as bad as a food desert, but for 2/3 of the year, it may as well be due to the cost factor.

[Rinel]

I'm not vegetarian, but I dated one for sixish years and have moved very significantly towards it. But there are much better (by which I mean more difficult to attack) reasons for vegetarianism than health. Sustainability is chief among them.