The Work Thread

Ganymede

By making social expectations explicit and evaluating them critically it's possible to have good conversations about if they bring any value or should be abandoned. Most discrimination of this type is done for no other reason then 'this is the way things are' so the solution is to force explicit justification and evaluation.

I don't recall Juniper saying anything about discrimination.

I can attest that what happened to her can and does happen everywhere regardless of the race, gender, and lifestyle of the "boss."

But I can also attest that the dynamic of women in the workplace -- I do refer to women expressly here -- is something which I do not think you appreciate fully, based on your responses.

Groth

@ganymede said in The Work Thread:

I don't recall Juniper saying anything about discrimination.

I think being assigned tasks outside of your job description solely based on your gender is discrimination.

I can attest that what happened to her can and does happen everywhere regardless of the race, gender, and lifestyle of the "boss."

This is the reason for "Norm Criticism" as the appropriate tool for doing something about it. Norms are not created by the "boss" which is why they tend to be enforced regardless of what kind of person is the "boss". Norms are created by social groups but they're not fixed and can be changed.

I'm not very good at explaining it which is why I tried to link to resources that do but I was surprised how few English resources there are dedicated to the concept, where I live it's been one of the most popular tools for addressing things like workplace inequality for the past 20 years.

Only slightly related, another social theory that's popular in Scandinavia and I have not seen much in the anglosphere is master suppression techniques. They're a study of the ways women in the workplace are commonly socially punished and by being aware of them, you can try to counteract them.

Misadventure

@groth said in The Work Thread:

Only slightly related, another social theory that's popular in Scandinavia and I have not seen much in the anglosphere is master suppression techniques. They're a study of the ways women in the workplace are commonly socially punished and by being aware of them, you can try to counteract them.

This is much closer to what I was asking about.

Ganymede

@groth said in The Work Thread:

I think being assigned tasks outside of your job description solely based on your gender is discrimination.

I agree, but what I read was that such tasks fell to her because her boss didn't do what he was supposed to do. Still, yours is a fair reading in context.

I have read articles similar to the ones you posted. I understand what is being said. In many ways, my suggestions follow; in others, they don't. Norm criticism is no different than what I would call "regularly checking in with people" or "keeping my eyes and ears open." And master suppression techniques are what I consider "being a fucking asshole."

I suppose I see things differently than most because, in my office, every member of support staff is a woman. On top of that, half of the attorneys and partners are women. And you still see the regular hierarchical shit happen because, well, some people are just shitty leaders no matter their gender.

I think I'm a pretty good boss to work with. Staff have told me this; but am I really? I mean, I do shit no other partner does, like: (1) upload my own e-mails into our online cloud storage system; (2) print out my own e-mails; (3) input all of my hours; (4) field cold calls and referrals; (5) spend more than five minutes every day with the associates to train them and make them feel comfortable; (6) get my own coffee; (7) make coffee for the firm; (8) handle my own discovery requests and responses; (9) file my own briefs, motions, and notices when I can; and (10) create my own notebooks for hearings and trials. And I do all this because, in my vision of how to practice law, this is shit that lawyers ought to be doing on their own.

But my administrative assistant always seems like she's walking on egg-shells. It's probably because people who are so damned independent in the workplace might not need you in the future. Maybe she's worried about job security. Maybe she's worried she's screwed up. One time, we missed a brief deadline: we got a continuance filed, and everything was okay. But she was near-tears because she felt like she fucked up. And she went to one of the senior assistants and asked if I was pissed, and was told: no, that's just Ganymede, you're fine, and they'd tell you to your face if you fucked up.

Like, I don't know how I'm doing. I don't. But I hope that showing that I want to be part of the workplace and I don't mind doing things they do or I don't expect you to make coffee and get me a cup if I come to work before you do, and all of that. Leadership's a tricky thing, I think, and what matters is the effort.

But what happened to Juniper is straight-up bullshit.

I just won an award (thank you) for my extensive pro bono work, so I decided to hold a firm event for it. I got the food; I helped set up; I helped clean up; I helped put all the food away; and I did it because it was my party and I felt responsible for it. And I think that's a feeling that's sorely missed in Juniper's boss, and in a lot of leadership positions in a lot of workplaces.

Derp

@ganymede said in The Work Thread:

But my administrative assistant always seems like she's walking on egg-shells.

I feel like I was literally trained to walk on egg shells around attorneys. Like -- our training really should have been about what we can do. Instead, it was mostly what we can't do. Which is -- basically anything unless an attorney has explicitly signed off on it because that's what the Court rules say.

Which is stupid.

It's an entire profession based on paranoia and micromanagement.

ETA:

It's doubly stupid because it's like:

Courts: You can't do anything on your own volition.
Experienced Paralegals: But -- why? We know this as well as the attorneys. This shit doesn't change, judge.
Courts: Because attorneys are the only ones licensed.
Experienced Paralegals: This one has had his license for two days and has never worked in this field.
Courts: But he's licensed.
EPs: But he's clueless...
Courts: And licensed!

Ganymede

@derp

I don’t disagree at all with the sentiment or belief that an experienced paralegal will trump a new associate.

As far as I am concerned neither can draft a motion the way I want it done, so I do my own.

Groth

@ganymede said in The Work Thread:

I have read articles similar to the ones you posted. I understand what is being said. In many ways, my suggestions follow; in others, they don't. Norm criticism is no different than what I would call "regularly checking in with people" or "keeping my eyes and ears open." And master suppression techniques are what I consider "being a fucking asshole."

Norm Criticism is distinct from "regularly checking in with people" or "keeping my eyes and ears open." in that rather then specific actions it's a framework of thought that encourages you to question things you take for granted. The nature of norms is that you normally don't think about them because they're the social default in your social group and that creates a burden on those who don't comply with the norm.

And master suppression techniques are what I consider "being a fucking asshole."

They are being a fucking asshole but the reason they're being widely taught about is that people in groups have a tendency to be blind to many kinds of asshole behavior. For instance even though countless studies have shown women on average talk less then men in meetings, the pervasive perception is still that women talk more.

The general idea is that by identifying and calling out asshole behaviors, you can make them less prevalent and by having them explicitly described you can counteract attempts to gaslight you into thinking they're not asshole behaviors.

Macha

So last week, I was getting 'trained' on a new project. A project I was doing all that review for, without training. A project/department I've been asking for training on for a YEAR now, back before they got swamped. I wanted to be able to take the time to learn it. Last week, there were internet issues here at the house (got those fixed), issues with the work software (Which never get fixed, and you just have to try and slap it around to make it work), Issues with the softphone (Software phone, the thing they sent me a shitty headset to use, because using it is mandatory), and I called out sick after Lunch Friday (After which I passed out for 4 hours, and just.. yeah. I needed the rest). I did not get to hear one complete call for this project (I could not listen in, or no one answered, when I could listen in). The people training me have been being rushed and pressured. My own boss says the project can be complex, especially to start. I told him I wasn't ready on Friday, to start Monday, and that was before I got sick and missed 2.5 more hours of 'training' (Aka, watching someone else do it, and they're not necessarily telling me what they are doing, because they are so used to it.)

I clock in/log in this morning to the message waiting for me. "Hey, welcome to the RL team! Please claim 4 tasks (cases) to complete this morning, let me know when you're done. Thank you." - from a woman I've never said two words to before. I straight posted in the chat, with this supervisor, my supervisor, and HIS boss "I'm not ready. These things happened last week, and I never heard so much as one whole phone call." My boss "We'll see if Lisa can claim some tasks this morning and you can shadow her." Great. And if no one answers the phone again, like the last 2 times I was 'training' with her? I so hope this job comes through from last Wednesday. I'm starting to hate to log in.

ETA: Boss' boss just was like "Lisa will have to claim Macha's 4 RL and work them with her before lunch, because Heather (who I don't know from Adam) will be assigning more after lunch." Bitch, you really think 4 cases is enough to teach me this whole project? Really? Because running a fever and sleeping a shit ton this weekend has not helped my memory.

Derp

@macha

You need to get the hell out of that position. That sounds ludicrous.

Macha

@derp I have been asking to learn it for a YEAR. They kept saying that my team was going to be phased out of doing it, that we weren't going to be doing any more, etc etc.

I KNEW better, from the queues. I asked, and I had someone VOLUNTEERING to just let me watch her do hers, while we were both working from home, and I could have watched her and listened in on everything through teams (Office computers are not set up the same as WFH, and this has caused an issue). I asked once a month, to be allowed to learn this.

Now they're trying to bully me into doing it before I am ready. And this is honestly a project you need two monitors to do. And with the laptop, clearly I do not have 2.

They're trying to make me feel guilty that Lisa has to claim my 4 tasks, when I know Lisa only claims like 3 at a time, tops. But no, I won't. Because if someone who has been doing it for over a YEAR is only claiming 3 at a time, why the HELL is the brand spanking new, not even fully trained person being assigned 4?!?

I may have called my contact point for that job I interviewed for on Wednesday.

Macha

So more training, doot doot do. AKA watching someone else do it, but I got to hear a couple whole calls this time! Yay!~

After lunch - Lisa wants me to make the calls. Softphone is broken. Boss didn't request me to have an account on the new calling software lol

I get to rub it in boss' face, because I asked him about this part LAST WEEK.

Misadventure

@macha this may already be on the table, but if not: consider having the trainers use screen and voice recording software (its out there for free) and either with a trainee present (you), or alone have them narrate what they are doing and why then share that video. They can do that al day and it's available for viewing and reviewing, transcripting, and it's not dependent on being able to connect at a specific moment time or technologywise.

I'm beginning to think this "training" and these managers are why that project is borked.

Macha

@misadventure hahahah no, they won't allow that. They only allow recording of like group things.

And because of workspaces, she can't install anything into it without IT, which would require sup's approval.

But they also assigned me MORE tasks to do, even though there was no discussion if I was ready to go solo, and even though my sup knew I have no software to call out with.

Yeah. Fucking idiots.

Misadventure

@macha wow they are inefficient. I work with sensitive data. Our trainings are recorded with dummy information because it's amazingly more effective than waiting until someone can step in again.

Hope you can move on soon.

Macha

@misadventure You and me both.

Juniper

@groth said in The Work Thread:

I think being assigned tasks outside of your job description solely based on your gender is discrimination.

@ganymede said in The Work Thread:

I agree, but what I read was that such tasks fell to her because her boss didn't do what he was supposed to do. Still, yours is a fair reading in context.

I didn't read anything here for a few days so I apologize for the belated clarification.

These things can happen to anyone, but in my specific case I absolutely think sexism contributes to my boss's behavior. I don't often see this kind of stuff happen to my male colleagues, mostly because they don't cop blame and shame when things go wrong so there's no motivation to be sticking their neck out and ensuring that things outside of their strict job description are doing well.

@groth said in The Work Thread:

Only slightly related, another social theory that's popular in Scandinavia and I have not seen much in the anglosphere is master suppression techniques. They're a study of the ways women in the workplace are commonly socially punished and by being aware of them, you can try to counteract them.

Really interesting reading. I think most of these have happened to me or people I know, and I struggle with Withholding Information so goddamn much.

@ganymede said in The Work Thread:

I just won an award (thank you) for my extensive pro bono work, so I decided to hold a firm event for it. I got the food; I helped set up; I helped clean up; I helped put all the food away; and I did it because it was my party and I felt responsible for it. And I think that's a feeling that's sorely missed in Juniper's boss, and in a lot of leadership positions in a lot of workplaces.

This is an interesting side note to me, because I recently attended a retirement party for a male colleague. The event and the retirement gift were both arranged by female colleagues, one a climatologist with a PhD and decades of experience, and the other a project officer who is also very experienced. Both assumedly had more important things to be doing. The guy was only responsible for turning up and making a speech.

In my experience weaponized incompetence is usually the culprit, a technique that is employed in the workplace just as much as it is at home. "I don't know how to order catering / book a room / fold the laundry correctly, but Beth does!". But Beth didn't emerge from the womb with impeccable event planning skills, did she? It's just that you couldn't be bothered to learn.

Macha

So I've been having issues with my workspaces just disconnecting, going black screen, eventually kicking me out so I can try to get back in.

Happened yesterday in the middle of 'training', and just kept it up.

Called IT. Left a message.

This morning, I log in, and it starts all over again. Text Boss, call IT. Leave a message after horrible hold music for 15 minutes and being told they have a high call volume.

Boss texts me that his boss says that his boss states "you will need to do the 7 cases as soon as you log in." Now, I can't get in, and 7 cases in this project is more than the people who have year+ in this project are being assigned. How the FUCK is this Kosher?

ETA: I finally got in. After being told that it's all my fault, because I'm running on wifi. A - I play fairly intense video games - on wifi. Suck my nuts.

B - I'm not buying a big ass ethernet cable to run down my hallway. You want to insist? They can buy it for me.

C -I got into Teams, to find that 2 IT morons had messaged me to ask me if I had solved my log in issue. When there is no way I could have seen the messages, if it wasn't solved. Cracker jack work there, assholes.

Macha

Now, because the IT gurus have stated it must be my wifi, my boss' boss is trying to insist I run ethernet. I said sure, I could do it.

But I don't have the cable, and I'm not buying it. Also, because it would have to come down the hallway and through a doorway, it could create a tripping hazard. Also, it would likely prevent my door to my bedroom (where I work when having bad pain flares) from closing, and reducing privacy (which is BS, because my roommate DGAF, anyhow.)

Too Old For This

@macha Wifi does not cause blackscreen. Wifi does not have that ability. Wifi can be the cause of why your connection flickers, drops, stutters, etc. Anything else is on their end.

That said, most ISP's can run cable through the walls/ceiling/etc. so that you can use a secondary modem/router to get an ethernet connection to your bedroom. But they will charge you for it.

And this is why Genie now refuses to work for companies that try to insist that I use my own PC, provide no stipend to cover basic internet or work-related WFH expenses (desk, chair, etc.). They are already saving a fuckton of money in the lack of building lease, insurance costs, repairs and maintenance on said buildings, etc. They can afford to cover the cost of a laptop with the software they wish me to use, the internet I will need to do the job, and any reasonable purchases that need to be made to set up a home office.

Macha

@too-old-for-this said in The Work Thread:

That said, most ISP's can run cable through the walls/ceiling/etc. so that you can use a secondary modem/router to get an ethernet connection to your bedroom. But they will charge you for it.

Hence why I am not doing this option. I think I would probably need the complex's permission, too, and.. they're not super reliable on getting things done.

And this is why Genie now refuses to work for companies that try to insist that I use my own PC, provide no stipend to cover basic internet or work-related WFH expenses (desk, chair, etc.). They are already saving a fuckton of money in the lack of building lease, insurance costs, repairs and maintenance on said buildings, etc. They can afford to cover the cost of a laptop with the software they wish me to use, the internet I will need to do the job, and any reasonable purchases that need to be made to set up a home office.

And now you know I am in the hunt for a new job.