Why We Don't Make New Friends Anymore (Or Creepers Do Creepy Things)

[Sunny]

I have met tons of people. I had a few bad experiences, but mostly good. Better crowd than LARP was when I was a kid. People are mostly normal.

I do NOT voice chat with anyone I haven't already known for years, though, period. Not any more. Phone to meet up for plans? Yes. Discord talk? Never ever again. The assumption that voice chat means I want to talk sexy with someone is--really gross, and I have had a huge, huge problem with mushers and mmo players both. Apparently this is the fault of my particular voice, but whatever.

Also, no, no pictures. I don't care. I have a FB. Some people have seen it. I am an old fat woman. My bits are old. I do not need to send pictures.

[surreality]

I have run into my fair share of creepers in the hobby -- in person and strictly online -- but they are far from the worst.

I've had assholes at the faire just walk right up and grab my chest while they're meandering by, some with sleazy winks or nasty comments before walking off. Rude cleavage comments have been the norm since junior high, so I'm slightly more immune these days. (Being fat these days also helps avoid them.)

My "favorite", though, was a guy I ran into at cons a lot in the 90s. He'd just walk right up to me and say, "I paint fat women naked, I would love to paint you!" and then leer. I wasn't skinny then, but dammit, I was far from fat. To this day I consider him the pinnacle of 'HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ALL THE NOPE FOREVER!'

He wasn't the worst, but damn if he wasn't memorable.

ETA: Creepy painter guy started this when I was 17. I mean. Jesus christ.

[Sunny]

@surreality

Yeah. I have had way worse experiences in other more mainstream but not actually mainstream hobbies. LARP creeper per capita is the highest I've encountered, in my anecdotal experience.

[surreality]

@Sunny LARP had the oh-so-memorable 'I see you're playing a Toreador, I am a mage! I now have appearance 5 because of my magic, and you are now entranced with me and will do everything I say, because it's your clan weakness!'

...

That was the first LARP ever, in 1992, before Mage was ever even published.

I mean, people kink-twinking with Mage has gone on that goddamned long, before Mage actually even existed.

[Sunny]

@surreality

I have had to kick people out of games and venues before for touching, grabbing, and once, kissing. We had a very, very strict no contact rule though, because we had too many people who wanted to rules lawyer consent to someone being touched I am not even kidding.

[Alamias]

@Sunny I've only played a WoD LARP once at a con, and it was by far the most creepiest thing I have ever had the experience to witness. The amount of predatory behavior that was going on blew me away.

But at the same time, everyone there (save for me) seemed to be comfortable with and/or wanted it, and that made me even more uncomfortable. I noped out of there and never went to another one, ever.

[Auspice]

I loved/hated LARP.
Part of why I fell for my ex husband is we fucking rocked it at a WW LARP playing opposite each other. People would just fall back and watch.

But then there were those goddamn creepers. The couple who would creep for 'thirds.' The dude who would ST and trade XP for favors (both monetary and not).

Just...ugh.

[mietze]

LARP and 90s Cons (and to some degree 80s and 90s game store crowds) were the worst for me, as far as dealing with gross people.

And as much as sometimes there's a desire to explain that behavior away as just "socially awkward"...no.

I did meet a ton of socially awkward men at these things. All the time (maybe I got lucky but most of the women I personally met were awesome). The vast majority of even socially awkward men do NOT want to put their hands on your genitals and breasts without asking. They actually do not make comments about how they hope you'll fall asleep so they can rape you (or make comments about how they'd like to do that to another woman in the room as if including you in the joke). The vast majority of men who are socially awkward may not be able to look you in the eyes but they're also not staring at your boobs or your crotch instead. That isn't a "socially awkward" thing. And in my experience the WORST people in those groups to do that shit were never the shy, limited contact with the outside world, uber nerd on the spectrum people. They were almost exclusively the people who were capable of manipulation and other very socially savvy things who had some degree of authority at the event/in the community, and the social capital to do it with impunity. I'm really glad that while things aren't perfect, more and more people regardless of gender don't tolerate or excuse away that shit.

Though the absolute WORST place for creeper behavior I ever experienced as a teen was Civil Air Patrol state gatherings and Jr ROTC. Up to and including one of the sponsors (a 40 something active duty officer, I was 17) who leaned over in an elevator and whispered in my ear "I love that dress, you're a knockout, if I thought I could get away with it, I'd attack you right now." I was attending the military ball with his son (who was 1000 percent NOT like that at all). I think it's probably a lot different now I hope. It was the era of when those things were not considered big deals after all.

[Darren]

I had one experience with WoD LARP back in the late 90's when I was attending the University of Maryland. The couple that ran it, an older hippy couple from Baltimore, seemed to genuinely believe they were vampires. They drank blood. They staged elaborate rituals. And they groomed players for sexual encounters. Young, naive me wasn't totally sure of what was going on when they suggested that I come over one night after our second session so I went and shortly after dinner, while we were all in the family room, the lights went off and someone was kissing me and then, more things happened then the lights came back on and I discovered it was him and not her so it all ended rather badly. I didn't go back and I have avoided LARPs ever since.

[surreality]

@mietze said in Why We Don't Make New Friends Anymore (Or Creepers Do Creepy Things):

And as much as sometimes there's a desire to explain that behavior away as just "socially awkward"...no.

Any time someone is putting hands on someone, there is no question.

Some of the things mentioned -- like 'maybe too lewd' humor (imporant note: with NO accompanying predatory behavior of any kind) -- are far more likely social awkwardness. There have been a few examples of such, and it is very hard for me to label this 'that person is absolutely a creeper'. A horrible creepy experience, absolutely. A predator? ...not by default.

[Cobalt]

Cam nNoD LARP is what lead to my being sexually assaulted and where the people running it did nothing about it.

[Ganymede]

Y’all damn have experienced that just be like whaaaaat?

[Tinuviel]

@Auspice said in Why We Don't Make New Friends Anymore (Or Creepers Do Creepy Things):

Part of why I fell for my ex husband

I'm not sure what message you're trying to put forward here.

[Ghost]

Yeah, LARPs can be danger zones. Absolutely.

From my page1 story, the "hot tub" guy had a rape fetish. He ran a LARP where his evil Lasombra Archbishop would punish players by producing a very RL huge purple dildo as a prop and then go into detail about how it was being used on their PC. I guess this happened to a lot of players who were attached to LARP as one of their few social outlets, so they didn't complain. Eventually, a sixteen year old girl had a character who failed. Dude brought out the dildo (crime), described how it was being used on her pc (another crime) and then she left the LARP crying. When she complained she was booted from the LARP.

This is the same 16 year old girl who lived with her dad in a "LARP house." Basically a LarpHouse is a crack house (usually minus the drugs) where someone acts as slumlord to 7-10 larpers who pay rent on couches. 16 year old's dad shared a curtained-off area with his daughter...who began "going to do scenes" with a 24+ year old male who was playing the role of her PC's love interest. When her naive-as-fuck dad found out his 16 year old daughter was getting boned (crime) by this guy, he got angry and was BOOTED FROM THE HOUSE. However, he didn't call the police to make a complaint because...

...he wanted to keep being welcome at LARP.

If I had a teenaged daughter I would absolutely refuse to allow her to LARP and try to keep her away from LARP after she was 18, because the idea of being grandparent to some neckbeard nowhere-person LARPer's baby just fills me with horrible butterflies. Anyone who has ever larped knows the vultures descend on single women quickly, and the younger and more "in shape" they are the more harassment they get.

[Ghost]

Ah. One more.

High school teacher who runs "RPG club". Recruits pretty high school girls, then after graduation they pose in chainmail bikini and boudoir-esque fantasy garb for his side gig. Technically not a crime (all 18, no longer students), but was recruiting for it on the DL at the high school.

I see this dude more regularly than I prefer.

[Cobalt]

@Ghost "Only social group" is pretty much why I stayed LARPing for longer than I should for that group. I got out after I found out hat a particular member had a) done some questionable consent BDSM stuff with another member he was dating, and also b) basically destroyed her entire life by pretending to have a job while not actually having one and running through all of her money.

But at the time of the event it was my primary social group outside of my husband and mushing. I was out of work, I believe. And so it was my only in-person contact with people outside of my husband. So I stayed in longer than I should have. But I learned afterward that you shouldn't share a hotel bed with a guy you're not already involved with, even if you think you're friends and you can trust them.

Short of it: Went to an out of town game, shared a hotel with a married couple (they got a bed) and another member (we were gonna share a bed). Female part of the married couple is even awake, but on her laptop not paying attention. I go to bed and wrap myself up like a caterpillar preparing to be a hideous moth the next morning as is customary. Dude gets into bed, starts rubbing all over my legs, hips, thighs, etc. Try to get grab my hands and pull them over to him, but can't get them out of my blankets (I wrap myself up night and tight with even my feet tucked in, no monsters getting me. >:|). He eventually gave up and went off to the bathroom for like thirty minutes.

(Sidenote: @RDC 's theory there was something along the lines of quote: "he was a gross asshole who went to go jerk off when he failed at getting you to do it". RDC being one of the few people I ever told the above story too.)

I just sort of froze up during it. I was in my early twenties, and still pretty sheltered, and like I said that was my only social group. It was either RDC or Spider who urged me to talk to the people in charge of the LARP about it, to get him kicked out. But ... well, I spoke to the wrong person. I think if I had gone to the Miami folk, rather than the Ft. Lauderdale folk something would have been done. But Reba was more interested in running an aforementioned LARP house than really being a good person.

[Ghost]

@Cobaltasaurus Fuck that's horrible. I'm sorry that happened.

Yanno, the real shame about LARP is that it can be SO FUCKING COOL when players dress up, get into character, and treat it like an ongoing soap opera/HowToHostAMurderMystery, but the sheer number of players and groups I've seen use it as a hotbed for poly/swinger recruiting and other shady activity totally ruins it. I see pictures(also WoD documentary) of these players in Germany in full Nosferatu makeup and question whether or not I'd do it again if it were like THAT, and I still think "...i wouldn't if it were with the same crowd."

My town has a LOT of shady stories surrounding these groups. I know of an orgy that happened mid-LARP in someone's shed, 4 or 5 "SCA" affiliated groups who went from RP to being these weird social clubs with swinger/dungeon/poly parties (and the members all have secret names like Dragonstar), lots of broken marriages, cheating, poly drama, blood play, etc. (Disclaimer: I don't judge poly/bdsm/etc. I'm into some of it. By weird I mean more so that I see more gaming stuff being used as a front for recruiting college age girls into the parties than I do see them giving a fuck anout gaming itself). Parties where they say things like "unless you have a sign on your shirt saying 'no touch' expect to get mauled or undressed if its your first night there".

But I gotta wonder. With how pervasive some of this stuff is in the gaming community, how many people are there who show up looking just to meet people, game, and make friends who get pressured with this next level stuff? I know quite a few who have sworn off LARP and some gaming groups because of harassment, bad stories, and being shunned or excluded for not ponying up on the sex action on the side.

In fact, I'm actually dealing with some of it myself right now in real life. A group of gamer meetups is now turning pool parties into "dungeon parties" and some RL friends have reached out to me saying things like "I...didnt sign up for this". It's resulted in conversations about how sex clubs, bdsm clubs, etc all contract to secrets, anonymity, no cell phones, touching rules, etc but these "clubs" really don't.

In my estimation you can probably trust people at ACTUAL sex/swinger/bdsm clubs more than some of these people.

[surreality]

@Cobaltasaurus said in Why We Don't Make New Friends Anymore (Or Creepers Do Creepy Things):

"he was a gross asshole who went to go jerk off when he failed at getting you to do it"

...sadly, this would have been my guess, too.

This kind of thing needs to NOT happen, and by gods I hope some of the LARP folks on the forum see this and realize it's something to take seriously.

[Ganymede]

@Ghost

I don't want to make it sound trivial, but have you thought about opening up your own safe group?

[Rinel]

@Ghost said in Why We Don't Make New Friends Anymore (Or Creepers Do Creepy Things):

In my estimation you can probably trust people at ACTUAL sex/swinger/bdsm clubs more than some of these people.

You almost certainly can. Kink communities tend to take consent very seriously and proactively warn new members about predatory people in the area.