Good TV

[Coin]

@Arkandel said in Good TV:

@Wizz said in Good TV:

Garth Ennis is the comic-books equivalent of a shock-jock radio DJ. He's deliberately offensive and gross on the level of a maladjusted teenager, TBH. He and Mark Millar are two authors whose popularity I will never understand, and Amazon made the right choice in trimming down the content of the series. It's still very explicit and dark, but in a way that is mostly not completely cringey and awful.

It's funny that you mention that because I've been a fan of both writers - Ennis more than Millar - so perhaps I can share my perspective.

Both of these guys rely on shock value at times and they can go too far; in fact some of their finest moments are from when they skirt the line. As such they've both created some amazing comics in the past whose serious moments are right there at the top with any other authors; Ennis' Hellblazer run is downright iconic, his Hitman was so fucking good and in my opinion he created penned the definitive Punisher run as well. Millar I'm more torn on; the first year of Ultimates was pretty well done and then he just seemed to get lazy or too carried away - the second year wasn't nearly as good, and then the whole thing went to hell.

But Ennis has a trait I've seen only rarely - in that way I'd compare him with Terry Pratchett. He can write these weird-ass absurd situations and focus on humor then he can flip a fucking switch and blindside you completely, pivoting into really serious characterization and dramatic, intimate moments for his characters.

@tek said in Good TV:

I describe Katee's character as "Starbuck, if she had her shit together"

I know what all these words mean but what you are describing does not compute.

Ennis is much more palatable, even at his worst, than Millar is. Millar only ever works when he's constrained and toned down, and even then so many of the things he writes need to be cut. I mean just from your example-- Ultimates --I can pick a few things, like actually abusive Hank Pym (way worse than a slap which was anecdotally a misinterpretation of the script by the artist that they just ran with) and rapist Hulk, that the book would have been better without.

Unlike Ennis, Millar is basically limited to having interesting ideas that really should be left to others to develop.

[Cupcake]

I've enjoyed both The Boys and Another Life over the weekend. I like how there's an indeterminate amount of people in soma that can be woken up and thus solves the problem of not being able to introduce new characters onto the ship and disrupt dynamics.

However, I've also watched the first five episodes of Orange is the New Black and the fifth episode absolutely gutted me.

[Ghost]

@Coin said in Good TV:

@Arkandel said in Good TV:

@Wizz said in Good TV:

Garth Ennis is the comic-books equivalent of a shock-jock radio DJ. He's deliberately offensive and gross on the level of a maladjusted teenager, TBH. He and Mark Millar are two authors whose popularity I will never understand, and Amazon made the right choice in trimming down the content of the series. It's still very explicit and dark, but in a way that is mostly not completely cringey and awful.

It's funny that you mention that because I've been a fan of both writers - Ennis more than Millar - so perhaps I can share my perspective.

Both of these guys rely on shock value at times and they can go too far; in fact some of their finest moments are from when they skirt the line. As such they've both created some amazing comics in the past whose serious moments are right there at the top with any other authors; Ennis' Hellblazer run is downright iconic, his Hitman was so fucking good and in my opinion he created penned the definitive Punisher run as well. Millar I'm more torn on; the first year of Ultimates was pretty well done and then he just seemed to get lazy or too carried away - the second year wasn't nearly as good, and then the whole thing went to hell.

But Ennis has a trait I've seen only rarely - in that way I'd compare him with Terry Pratchett. He can write these weird-ass absurd situations and focus on humor then he can flip a fucking switch and blindside you completely, pivoting into really serious characterization and dramatic, intimate moments for his characters.

@tek said in Good TV:

I describe Katee's character as "Starbuck, if she had her shit together"

I know what all these words mean but what you are describing does not compute.

Ennis is much more palatable, even at his worst, than Millar is. Millar only ever works when he's constrained and toned down, and even then so many of the things he writes need to be cut. I mean just from your example-- Ultimates --I can pick a few things, like actually abusive Hank Pym (way worse than a slap which was anecdotally a misinterpretation of the script by the artist that they just ran with) and rapist Hulk, that the book would have been better without.

Unlike Ennis, Millar is basically limited to having interesting ideas that really should be left to others to develop.

I think the big difference between Ennis and Millar (mind you, both have stuff like horrible rape, murder, etc in their storylines) is that in "The Boys", Butcher is Ennis' voice. Ennis writes these horrible things into storylines then uses characters like Butcher to inject his biting "what the fuck is wrong with people?" narrative into the characters.

Millar, unlike Ennis, has an often less mature approach. I think that he ultimately tries to do the same thing, but Millar often feels like after 50 pages of "Wooo Grand Theft Auto Rampage!" he then will often take a turn and be more coy about the issues he introduced during said rampage.

tl;dr

Ennis is more immediately chiding and brutal about the darkness in his characters, where Millar seems to understand how people can "get off" on their own darkness long enough to learn that it's wrong. Ennis writes about characters who know theyre fucked up and do it anyway. Millar tends to write about characters who give in to their darker natures, spiral downwards, and then have to recover from being stupid enough for giving in to them.

I think Millar is a lot more clever than he gets credit for. His packaging can at first seem very immature, but he definitely has something to say.

[Arkandel]

@Ghost Where I think Millar fails - and Ennis succeeds - is in making me care about his characters. I don't think I've felt this way about a single Millar character - they are often involved in some really fun stories but that's where it ends.

He's also great about creating... gravity for his characters. His Punisher is the best ever written in my opinion; sure, there are some self-indulging plots where he just mows down hundreds of mobsters at a funeral but there are many personal, intimate tales in there as well - even romantic arcs, or what Frank can even have that resembles anything of the sort.

Yet in the entire saga the notion lingers that this is the most dangerous motherfucker on the planet and in itself it's almost a separate entity, a plot hook of its own, and Ennis can do that without having to explicitly tell the reader, yet he lets it be a contrast with the challenges his character faces - he makes Frank quite aware of the fact he resides in a cynical and violent world in which he can't really make anything better since he's part of the problem.

I quite loved his perspective. It's really easy to turn the man-and-a-gun vigilante into a simplistic glorification of machismo. Ennis can give it depth and nuance. The Boys is a work that embraces a similar concept, where otherwise it could have just been a far simplistic "evil JLA" story of which we've seen many.

[insomniac7809]

So I haven't finished The Boys but I'm willing to call it solid TV so far. A few of my thoughts:

• Definitely a timely production in the #metoo post-Cosby era.
• Treatment of female characters is decidedly mixed. The two central characters are both men driven by bad things happening to their non-character partner, which is un-great. La Femme is a very Whedonesque character, the feral damaged kickass waif. On the other hand, Starlight is a pretty excellent secondary protagonist.
• A lot of sexual violence in the show. Can see why it would be a turn-off for some people.
• The treatment of corporate juggernauts crushing the little people between the profit-generating gears is great. The fact that it's an Amazon production is not lost on me.
• The bleak tone, cynical plot, and dark humor is right up my alley.
• It does a really good job of humanizing everyone, although I wouldn't describe A-Train, the Deep, or Homelander as sympathetic. Just very well humanized and realized.
• Frenchie is fucking awesome.
• Homelander is fucking terrifying.
• I actually really like the change from the comics where the Boys don't have superpowers to compete.
• It does dial things down from the characteristic over-the-top Ennisisms, which is probably a good decision on the whole. Ennis is a fifty-year-old fourteen-year-old, and having an editorial hand to keep 'transgressive bleakness' from dropping into 'puerile self-parody' is more or less a necessity.
• Mark Millar licks goats.

[Aria]

...I kind of just want to watch some kinda sweeping fantasy with elves in it that is not LoTR or the Shannara Chronicles again. Whatcha got for me re: recommendations, interwebs?

[Lotherio]

@Aria said in Good TV:

...I kind of just want to watch some kinda sweeping fantasy with elves in it that is not LoTR or the Shannara Chronicles again. Whatcha got for me re: recommendations, interwebs?

The Dragon Prince, I like their elves so far.

[Arkandel]

@Aria

[Wretched]

@Lotherio @Aria I concur that Dragon Prince is bingable fantasy goodness. Ive only seen the first season, but it was fantastic.

[Lotherio]

Follow up, Dark Crystal should be starting up on Netflix soon too. Gelflings are just muppet elves, I'm guessing this is start of their rebellion before Skeksies vampire them all. Looks promising, for me at least.

[Ganymede]

@Aria

Maybe wait for Carnival Row? Not quite elves, but close enough.

[Auspice]

I also echo Dragon Prince.

[insomniac7809]

@Arkandel said in Good TV:

Ennis' Hellblazer run is downright iconic

See, Hellblazer is the thing about Ennis. He wrote Dangerous Habits which might well be the Hellblazer story. He wrote the birthday party and Rake at the Gates of Hell. He wrote Kit, for God's sake.

He also write Son of Man. So... yeah.

(Remember? That's the one where John looks at the reader and announces "I'm shagging a lesbian; do I get a prize?" And the one where
***=ewww***

click to show

the enemy is a rape demon trapped in a little boy's corpse who sired the Antichrist by stabbing its host's father in the gut and fucking the hole

)

Ennis is always gonna Ennis but you can't let him get too Ennis or you get Son of Man.

[Ganymede]

Why oh why did they pull Exosquad from Hulu?

I know it was a while ago, but I still miss it.

[Wretched]

@Ganymede I didn't even know it was on there! Damned Terrans!

[The Sands]

@Thenomain said in Good TV:

You mean Star Trek: The Next Geriatrics? I’m honestly disappointed at all the returning characters, and will wonder how they deal with Data after, you know, what happened.

They downloaded a copy of his positronic matrix into B-4, the android body that was recovered earlier in the very same movie.

Remember, always back up your Data.

[Rinel]

Having watched Another Life and read all the universally negative reviews of it, I think it's safe to say that I have truly atrocious standards for television. I thought it was lots of fun.

I'm gonna watch the Expanse next.

[wahoo]

Holy shit, OITNB episode Minority Deported has a haunting ending.

[Deleted]

@wahoo It was realistic at least.

[insomniac7809]

So just bringing up another couple points about The Boys now that I've finished it...

Apparently, the Starlight plot with the Deep was actually changed from its original version because the Weinstein stories actually hit while they were writing the show. They'd planned on having it settled behind closed doors but wound up changing it to going public to reflect the current state of what they were working from.

Also, the writers were aware of the issues with fridging in the comics, which was one of the reasons for the big twist.