Diversity Representation in MU*ing
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@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Ominous said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@HelloProject
. A few games do explore other races/species, though, like Burning Wheel's racial mechanics with Elves having Grief, Dark Elves having Spite, Dwarves having Greed, Orcs having Hate, and Humans having Faith.
uh i have no idea what mechanic this is but it SOUNDS racist af, just from those terms. Never thought I'd be an elf apologist but EVERYONE SUCKS BUT HUMANS is yikes.
lol, except some of us find 'faith' as some sort of defining virtue to be super horrible, so I guess IMO those all suck.
This whole thread is pretty interesting. I do play a majority of white dudes, not gonna lie, but when I do play a character that is an ethnicity sufficiently different from mine (which is white Hispanic) I do my research and then generally just -- play as normal. IMO, one of the best ways of not stereotyping is making sure that the cultural marks (social or physical) are genuine and not there for the sake of being there.
Also, if you're not black, don't feel free to use the n-word because you're playing a black person (yeah, it's happened a lot). Same for other slurs. That's just... I feel that should be obvious.
This all reminds me of a relatively recent thing where someone playing a PoC character, on more than one occasion, metaposed that their character's way of talking was hard to understand and/or "arguably English" (when it very clearly was neither of those things, especially since any of the non-strictly prescriptive grammar used in dialogue was pretty close to AAVE). Like, yikes, ya know?
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Also, if you're not black, don't feel free to use the n-word because you're playing a black person (yeah, it's happened a lot). Same for other slurs. That's just... I feel that should be obvious.
Honestly, I think we should all refrain from using slurs - even those that our minority group has reclaimed, or are otherwise acceptable for us to use. Since there's no way of proving we're entitled to use them, it's easier to just not.
He/Him
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@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Coin said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Also, if you're not black, don't feel free to use the n-word because you're playing a black person (yeah, it's happened a lot). Same for other slurs. That's just... I feel that should be obvious.
Honestly, I think we should all refrain from using slurs - even those that our minority group has reclaimed, or are otherwise acceptable for us to use. Since there's no way of proving we're entitled to use them, it's easier to just not.
I mean, I agree in theory, and pretty much universally RP in that fashion. But I'm not going to tell someone they can't use a slur that their group has reclaimed, either, not my place.
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@Coin said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
This all reminds me of a relatively recent thing where someone playing a PoC character, on more than one occasion, metaposed that their character's way of talking was hard to understand and/or "arguably English" (when it very clearly was neither of those things, especially since any of the non-strictly prescriptive grammar used in dialogue was pretty close to AAVE). Like, yikes, ya know?
@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Honestly, I think we should all refrain from using slurs - even those that our minority group has reclaimed, or are otherwise acceptable for us to use. Since there's no way of proving we're entitled to use them, it's easier to just not.
@Coin said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I mean, I agree in theory, and pretty much universally RP in that fashion. But I'm not going to tell someone they can't use a slur that their group has reclaimed, either, not my place.
Even if I did use slurs in general irl, I still wouldn't in an RP. There's a pretty simple reason for that, namely: Not everyone in every demographic 100% agrees on 1. what words are "reclaimed", 2. the concept of reclaiming a word in general. It's one thing in your own personal work of fiction, but in an RP, in my opinion, it doesn't really matter what race you are.
There's a level of respect that we have to show for each other as a community, as unlike irl, we have to make this environment as comfortable for each other as possible, due to this being all of our collective hobby that we really have rather limited spaces to be in to begin with. So, speaking as a black person at least, I think that the most fair thing to do is definitely to avoid slurs altogether. I'm not looking to make another black person uncomfortable just because, say, I was fine with the N word, and they aren't. It's a pretty visceral word, I know black people who can't stand hearing it from anyone, it can be kind of like hearing a nuke randomly drop out of no where.
Like, I personally am all for the reclaiming or devaluing of slurs, even if I don't personally do it, mostly just due to my discomfort with using the word, even if I don't mind that other people do. But I don't think it's unfair or imposing yourself if a MU was like "we want to make this environment as comfortable for everyone as possible, so we prefer to avoid slurs of any kind". Obviously fictional fantasy slurs are one thing, but still, I really don't think it's controversial for a MU to say they want to avoid them to make sure that everyone is comfortable. It's a lesser evil, to me at least, to make sure that all POCs are comfortable rather than bring up the often rather controversial topic of slur reclamation.
Now of course this can get muddy, like on the topic of LGBTQ people. As there are people who identify as "queer", and there are people who see it as permanently a slur and do not want to hear people use it in that way. However, I believe that this is kind of an exception to the rule. You can't really tell someone "you can't identify as that", as that's kind of lowkey fucked up. But there's no black people out here identifying as the N word, I don't believe it's oppressing someone's identify to say that we avoid those slurs so that we can have a safe environment. Contextually, "queer" and the N word are quite different things, even if they can both be controversial.
In the end, I guess the difference is, does this controversial word involve someone's overall expression of identity and thus their comfort and sense of self as a human being or not. I don't believe that this is the case of the N word, or other racial slurs, as they aren't really a crux of our existence, they're more an aspect of some of our cultural interaction and how we might express ourselves with other people. And I don't think I've met a black person who would be like "oh no fuck you" if someone said we avoid slurs to make sure we have a safe environment. At least no one I'd meet in a MU.
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Coin said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
This all reminds me of a relatively recent thing where someone playing a PoC character, on more than one occasion, metaposed that their character's way of talking was hard to understand and/or "arguably English" (when it very clearly was neither of those things, especially since any of the non-strictly prescriptive grammar used in dialogue was pretty close to AAVE). Like, yikes, ya know?
It sure is, little buddy. It sure is.
@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Honestly, I think we should all refrain from using slurs - even those that our minority group has reclaimed, or are otherwise acceptable for us to use. Since there's no way of proving we're entitled to use them, it's easier to just not.
@Coin said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I mean, I agree in theory, and pretty much universally RP in that fashion. But I'm not going to tell someone they can't use a slur that their group has reclaimed, either, not my place.
Even if I did use slurs in general irl, I still wouldn't in an RP. There's a pretty simple reason for that, namely: Not everyone in every demographic 100% agrees on 1. what words are "reclaimed", 2. the concept of reclaiming a word in general. It's one thing in your own personal work of fiction, but in an RP, in my opinion, it doesn't really matter what race you are.
There's a level of respect that we have to show for each other as a community, as unlike irl, we have to make this environment as comfortable for each other as possible, due to this being all of our collective hobby that we really have rather limited spaces to be in to begin with. So, speaking as a black person at least, I think that the most fair thing to do is definitely to avoid slurs altogether. I'm not looking to make another black person uncomfortable just because, say, I was fine with the N word, and they aren't. It's a pretty visceral word, I know black people who can't stand hearing it from anyone, it can be kind of like hearing a nuke randomly drop out of no where.
Like, I personally am all for the reclaiming or devaluing of slurs, even if I don't personally do it, mostly just due to my discomfort with using the word, even if I don't mind that other people do. But I don't think it's unfair or imposing yourself if a MU was like "we want to make this environment as comfortable for everyone as possible, so we prefer to avoid slurs of any kind". Obviously fictional fantasy slurs are one thing, but still, I really don't think it's controversial for a MU to say they want to avoid them to make sure that everyone is comfortable. It's a lesser evil, to me at least, to make sure that all POCs are comfortable rather than bring up the often rather controversial topic of slur reclamation.
Now of course this can get muddy, like on the topic of LGBTQ people. As there are people who identify as "queer", and there are people who see it as permanently a slur and do not want to hear people use it in that way. However, I believe that this is kind of an exception to the rule. You can't really tell someone "you can't identify as that", as that's kind of lowkey fucked up. But there's no black people out here identifying as the N word, I don't believe it's oppressing someone's identify to say that we avoid those slurs so that we can have a safe environment. Contextually, "queer" and the N word are quite different things, even if they can both be controversial.
In the end, I guess the difference is, does this controversial word involve someone's overall expression of identity and thus their comfort and sense of self as a human being or not. I don't believe that this is the case of the N word, or other racial slurs, as they aren't really a crux of our existence, they're more an aspect of some of our cultural interaction and how we might express ourselves with other people. And I don't think I've met a black person who would be like "oh no fuck you" if someone said we avoid slurs to make sure we have a safe environment. At least no one I'd meet in a MU.
Dude, this is off-topic and more personal, but you've come a long way from the guy ranting in OOC Lounges I used to know and it's real nice to see. Kudos.
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@egg said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Play a POC, it wouldn't kill you.
Yeah, no. This is a situation where no one wins. There are folks who will find this idea to be as insulting as wearing blackface. And others who would call it cultural appropriation.
Me, as a white guy? I'm choosing the safer option every time.
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@TheBigD said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@egg said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Play a POC, it wouldn't kill you.
Yeah, no. This is a situation where no one wins. There are folks who will find this idea to be as insulting as wearing blackface. And others who would call it cultural appropriation.
Me, as a white guy? I'm choosing the safer option every time.
I've gotta say, this is not even on the same planet as cultural appropriation. Like, cultural appropriation is a pretty specific concept, namely the concept of taking an aspect of another culture without any real credit or respect for it, possibly also while in the process renaming it and being like "I literally invented this out of no where and never saw anyone else do it before".
I like to use the Macklemore vs. Eminem example. (Warning: Opinions)
Macklemore is cultural appropriation because he legit built his whole ass career on black culture and art and got accolades while pretty much giving nothing back and being completely unable to show any respect or acknowledgement without making it about himself.
Eminem, at least from my extremely subjective perspective, isn't cultural appropriation, because he's spent years respecting and giving back to the culture and art that he built his career on, he had to work very hard for it and pay all the normal dues for it than any black person would, and didn't take any shortcuts to get there. Now, I could criticize his rapping for a variety of reasons, but that's a whole other topic not really related to race relations.
Either way, anyone saying that playing a POC in an RP is cultural appropriation is completely objectively wrong. Though as the example above proved, someone can be a whole ass and it can definitely turn into something racist lol. To me this is just common sense though. That "everything is offensive and understanding how not to be insulting is hard" stuff people always say is nonsense. I know far more white people who understand basic respect and not being a whole ass than ones who don't, so I really don't think it's that complicated.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying play a POC if you aren't comfortable with it, but not doing it because you think people will find it inherently insulting and offensive and all this other stuff is really only a valid reason if you literally have no idea how not to insult another human being. If the reason is "I don't feel comfortable because I'm concerned about being disrespectful", that's one thing, but the way you worded it has a very inflammatory "the SJWs will absolutely fucking destroy me" vibe. I can't imagine someone complaining to you that "RPing as a black person is basically blackface" outside of like a random 13 year old on Twitter whose entire understanding of social issues is memes.
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I can't imagine someone complaining to you that "RPing as a black person is basically blackface" outside of like a random 13 year old on Twitter whose entire understanding of social issues is memes.
While they did not use these words, individuals in this thread have made a very strong insinuations that white people playing PoC is wrong and that they should stay to their own color.
I'm hoping that is not what they meant but that's how it came across to me.
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@TheBigD said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@egg said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Play a POC, it wouldn't kill you.
Yeah, no. This is a situation where no one wins. There are folks who will find this idea to be as insulting as wearing blackface. And others who would call it cultural appropriation.
Me, as a white guy? I'm choosing the safer option every time.
I play POC and other genders/orientations quite frequently, and no one has ever said anything like this to me.
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@Kanye-Qwest It hasn't happened to me, either, but I have seen it happen to someone else that wasn't playing any differently than I was (and wasn't playing any sort of gross tropes or similar).
It was bizarre, and uncomfortable to hear spewing all over the OOC room constantly. Like 'archery isn't native to <specific culture> so rar rar rar she's doing it wrong' bizarre... in a modern real world setting where anyone could have learned archery from anyone, anywhere. I dunno, but if I saw someone specifically using some ancient weaponry of <specific culture> that was more or less never used by anyone ever any more, I'd feel it to be more stereotype gross/fetishizing?
It was weird, and it felt weird, and I still don't know how to explain why it felt weird, other than to say 'it felt like someone saying "omg your First Nations character is wearing PVC pants and driving a car, that is not traditional! Doesn't that ignorant player know about horses and leather?!"' and it was very souring and gross.
But, like, I'm not in a position to say anything other than 'this felt very weird and extremely uncomfortable to observe for so very very very many reasons all at once'.
Oh fucking well.
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This was about my char on HM and that person who got really really mad that as a Maori (in a modern day setting), my char knew how to use a bolas?
Because yeah. That was really... really just, well: dumb.
And if it's happened other times than that: also super dumb.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Auspice Yep, that's what I was thinking of exactly. It was incredibly uncomfortable to watch.
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@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I play POC and other genders/orientations quite frequently, and no one has ever said anything like this to me.
In all fairness, I complain constantly about men playing lesbians, at least when they do badly, like by treating gay women as voracious sextigers out to plant a butt in every female character's lap and a tongue in every female character's crevices. I just don't lose any sleep over it because on the list of problems I face due to my orientation, being badly represented by a few intellectually uncurious weirdos playing make-believe on a dying medium is just about the least serious threat imaginable. If you* are that kind of player, I'll make fun of you behind your back to a circle of friends I feel I can trust, possibly make vague allusions to you on this board, and promptly forget it because this is all too low-stakes to care about.
*general you, not you specifically, Kanye Qwest
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@GreenFlashlight said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I just don't lose any sleep over it because on the list of problems I face due to my orientation, being badly represented by a few intellectually uncurious weirdos playing make-believe on a dying medium is just about the least serious threat imaginable.
And this is why I shudder when I see any East Asian PCs.
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@GreenFlashlight said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I play POC and other genders/orientations quite frequently, and no one has ever said anything like this to me.
*general you, not you specifically, Kanye Qwest
SURE, SURE
But, that's not an inherent problem to playing against your RL type. That's a problem with people playing against their RL type for shallow fetish fulfillment.
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
So, speaking as a black person at least, I think that the most fair thing to do is definitely to avoid slurs altogether. I'm not looking to make another black person uncomfortable just because, say, I was fine with the N word, and they aren't. It's a pretty visceral word, I know black people who can't stand hearing it from anyone, it can be kind of like hearing a nuke randomly drop out of no where.
I'm in the latter group. I can't stand hearing the N-word, even from other black people. I have never bought into the idea that the N-word is "reclaimed", mostly because I've never heard it used in a context than it was used originally: negative. The only thing people have done is normalize the idea of being negative to their friend groups - which is a rather normal, standard-practice unhealthy relationship dynamic. The same people calling their friends the N-word are also calling them bitches, motherfuckers, etc. I have yet to hear the N-word used in a positive context.
So is that the way some people talk to each other? Yes. Is it still highly offensive? Yes.
Relevance: If you're wondering if you should use that language because it makes your POC character more authentic, don't please. There's plenty of other foul language terms to use if that's how your character relates to others.
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I can't say the idea of 'this character should talk different because of the color of their skin' has ever occurred to me and that seems so weird.
Talk different because of where they grew up, maybe (as in New York or Georgia or California or England or-) but not 'Well this character from Brooklyn is white but this one is black so they should talk totally different'
that is just.... jesus fuck people do that? Why
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@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
That's a problem with people playing against their RL type for shallow fetish fulfillment.
Hey, if I want to play a neurotypical person I refuse to call it a fetish.
Mostly.He/Him
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@Tinuviel I would have no idea how to play a NT character
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@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
But, that's not an inherent problem to playing against your RL type. That's a problem with people playing against their RL type for shallow fetish fulfillment.
No argument, but at least on my end, the fetishization isn't the problem. It's the shallowness, which I think is the problem people are really discussing.
