Euphoria - Feedback

[Sunny]

I know "haven't joined" wasn't exactly the question, but for me I just don't have the oomph to try a new game, particularly when I have a rough time with Ares. I'm not capable of adding anything right now, because even current commitment are too much.

It's not you, it's me -- and you're starting up a game months into a global pandemic. Low engagement is a thing.

Also, people are exhausted. If you try to make exhausted people be something besides not lazy, they will go somewhere they can rest. Even the MMO I play on has stopped idle-purging for the time being. The mush I still have a PC on has really really really really really lax idle/engagement policies, and if it didn't, I would've bailed forever ago.

[Auspice]

I've twice now on Euphoria opened a public scene and left or open to become a slow scene and only a @Cobaltasaurus alt later joined. So there's definitely people willing to rp.

Additionally, my personal frustration has been in finding people willing to buy into plot. I was given a staff plot to take over and run and had.....one pc from the race it's for show up to scenes. I haven't even been able to finish it. I've put out whenisgood and scheduled at the times that people say they can make it and only that person consistently shows up. That isn't on Staff at all. I feel like it's a continuation of an issue I've had with MUs for years now where if it's not a add running a scene, people don't care. (Inb4 'but arx' - Arx is the exception to the rule in this).

[Raeras]

I know for me personally it was just RL issues. I loved the concept and my character idea but because of RL stuff I had to scale way back on the places I was playing. So decided to stick with the few sites I was already heavily involved in.

[Cobalt]

@Raeras said in Euphoria - Feedback:

I know for me personally it was just RL issues. I loved the concept and my character idea but because of RL stuff I had to scale way back on the places I was playing. So decided to stick with the few sites I was already heavily involved in.

Understood. I think that might be the same for a lot of people.

@bear_necessities said in Euphoria - Feedback:

@Cobaltasaurus I really would stress not trying to fit your game around complaints of people who have left. It's like trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.

I'm mostly trying to figure out if there are any really big glaring issues that I can fix.

@LWhiskey said in Euphoria - Feedback:

Also having to rewrite a character application 4 times over several days was frustrating, especially as it was due to a either a lack of lore files, or a rule change in middle of writing the character sheet. Was happy roll with it, but that took out the initial wind in the sails.

I'm sorry about that. The lack of lore is really important. If you can contact me about what lore files affected you, I can make sure that going forward that doesn't happen again.

@krmbm said in Euphoria - Feedback:

@Cobaltasaurus Your idle policy says 60 days, but you're enforcing it after 30 days.

This is a big, big oof on me. This is one I'm gonna have to flat out own. In the beginning I said I would wait 60 days. Then I spoke with ESG about how things were going and how I saw a lot of people apping for the department heads and not being particularly active, and my worry that that would impact things negatively, so decided to change to 30 days. And I thought I changed the policy, but double checked and I didn't. That is 100% on me. And a pretty massive fuck up on my part.

Anyone affected by that -- I'm sorry. Only two characters were marked in a way that they couldn't easily come back. And of them only one has been storylined to actually be dead. If either come back I'll retcon or handwavium them back to life.

And from now on go back to the 60-day policy as it's written.

@Sunny said in Euphoria - Feedback:

I know "haven't joined" wasn't exactly the question, but for me I just don't have the oomph to try a new game, particularly when I have a rough time with Ares. I'm not capable of adding anything right now, because even current commitment are too much.

It's not you, it's me -- and you're starting up a game months into a global pandemic. Low engagement is a thing.

Also, people are exhausted. If you try to make exhausted people be something besides not lazy, they will go somewhere they can rest. Even the MMO I play on has stopped idle-purging for the time being. The mush I still have a PC on has really really really really really lax idle/engagement policies, and if it didn't, I would've bailed forever ago.

This is really important, thank you. My personal anxiety sometimes makes it hard to see the bigger picture of things. I can be patient, however. If it's just a matter of "not right now" well. The game costs me all of $5/month. I can keep trucking along for a while.

---

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I think the biggest take away I need right now is a) be more patient, b) be consistent with my idle policy, and c) just ... be patient.

[bear_necessities]

@Cobaltasaurus said in Euphoria - Feedback:

Then I spoke with ESG about how things were going and how I saw a lot of people apping for the department heads and not being particularly active

Yeah so I mean one thing I would tell you is to not worry about people apping "leadership" positions and idling out. I personally would not put any particular emphasis on being a leader because "trickle down" rp never works out the way you want it to and it puts a lot of stress a leadership position to begin with. In fact, I wouldn't pin plot on any specific rank/position/race/etc and just spread it out as evenly as possible.

[Auspice]

So a couple thoughts as I've seen the thread:

You are doing a lot at once. I know @Paradox commented this to me when I mentioned the Xayians showing up. He felt you'd gone too soon (he and I talk game theory a LOT) and was surprised. The scene was fun and well-done! But I do agree it could've been held off longer. Am I excited to see the Xayians and learn about them? Hell yeah. But it IS yet-another-new-thing for incoming people to learn and I think that may be hurting things a bit also, potentially. You wanna ramp stuff up.

I get the want to DO THINGS. You're excited! There's plot! You want to share it with people! I 100% get it. But roll it out slowly.

I'd say do just 1-2 BIG events a month and if you and NGC are up to running moar stuff, do more domestic stuff mid-week. The mystery in the farm is a good example.

Also: nix the PC Department Heads altogether. IMO. People DO idle out in those roles, it's true. And putting requirements on them ('run scenes' or 'hit these activity requirements') doesn't help. Either no one apps or they do and they don't meet the requirements, hoping they'll be Special and Cool Enough you won't care. PC Department Heads aren't necessary. @faraday ran BSU with a relatively 'flat' structure for PCs so that everyone could have turns running missions, but no one was TEH MAN IN CHARGE and y'know what? It worked. Nothing ever got bottlenecked because Bob the CAG wasn't on. No one ever felt stymied because they didn't get along with Sue the marine Captain.

The game is small enough right now, you can NPC the Department Heads and have PCs be their assistants, then have 1-3 assistants per so that there's variety, no issue if people idle/idle out, etc., and they can still have a sense of responsibility.

[Ominous]

@Auspice said in Euphoria - Feedback:

I know @Paradox commented this to me when I mentioned the Xayians showing up.

When you get a Xayian really, really angry, does their hair turn blonde and they start glowing?

[TurtleStraw]

@Cobaltasaurus said in Euphoria - Feedback:

I'm sorry about that. The lack of lore is really important. If you can contact me about what lore files affected you, I can make sure that going forward that doesn't happen again.

So it was at the time when there wasn't the write-up that now exists on Command, which led to me needing to write up a whole new character. Then there was in the middle of writing up the new one, there was the yet-to-be-published rule on rank limitations. Which is fine, simple change on my end, just for me it was - ughh another thing I need to do?! How many hoops are there?? This one wasn't even a thing when I started!

I'm not sure if it has changed now on character generation, but for me, it wasn't too clear what each department did. What rank would be typical for what role and in what department. Also, options being listed that you couldn't pick - there can only be 1 Captain and I assumed that was military title of Captain rather than ship Captain that I would have thought was a much higher title.

[Tinuviel]

@LWhiskey said in Euphoria - Feedback:

I assumed that was military title of Captain rather than ship Captain

Navy captain and army captain are different ranks.

[TurtleStraw]

@Tinuviel - Heh oops >_>

But, still, seems redundant to offer it as a choice to pick on character creation.

[Ominous]

@LWhiskey

A naval rank of Captain is equivalent to the army rank of Colonel. An army Captain is the equivalent to a naval rank of Commander. It's because of how the titles developed over history. The US Armed Services avoid confusions between forces by just referring to the rank number O-1, O-2, etc.

[buttercup]

I have been playing Lou and loved most the scenes in the game. I really loved the staff run plots and the frequency of them.

School started back up (two male children in the house) with one in band (Football Friday is spent at the games watching him) after we were all quarantined on the 24th.

My wife and I recovered from Covid-19 (I work from home so my breathing is a non-issue but man I hope it gets better in a few months) and she is back to teaching and coaching basketball at the HS. This also eats into my time as I help out a lot.

Also, I do a lot of BLM protesting and things like a BLM BBQ (socially distanced and masked) at my house on Monday have me away this week.

So for me it is more circumstantial.

But...

I am utterly intimidated by the web portal and long ongoing scenes. I am so used to old school staff run plots and I don't like to RP spread out over a long length of time as I lose focus and interest when it is so slow-moving. I feel like I may be missing out on the game a bit this way. This may be me aging and just not adapting but I'm intimidated by the RP setup a lot except when it is an event I can sign up for and ends so I can plan around it with my life.

[Tinuviel]

@buttercup said in Euphoria - Feedback:

This may be me aging and just not adapting but I'm intimidated by the RP setup a lot except when it is an event I can sign up for and ends so I can plan around it with my life.

Agreed, though this probably is just us being old.

If I'm in a scene that takes a day, I'm going to forget about it. But at the same time I always complain inwardly about never getting time to RP properly... it's a curse, this age business.

[Wizz]

Having "grown up" with both MU*ing and PbP forums in pretty nearly equal measure, I am unbothered by the prospect of a much slower scene, but they really do need a little something more to keep the momentum going or they tend to fizzle out. Find some sort of tension for them that keeps them on your mind while you're not actively writing your turn and busy doing other stuff. Action scenes, weirdly enough, always worked the best for me. (Or save the interpersonal drama you've got cooking for them, whatever toots your whistle.)

[mietze]

I also think its good to keep in mind the 4-8 week activity hit that most new games seem to hit after they open, when the new shiny wears off. I think usually at the 3 month mark is where you get a more solid look at the realistic population of the game.

I have seen the ooh shiny surge kill games that weren't prepared for it. Or where there was worry something was wrong at the natural drop off and then scrambling to try to retain folks instead of concentrating on what it most interesting to the runners and the stable core. So while its good to take a look and be willing to retool (something every game should do once in awhile and that first threshold is a good time!) I wouldn't take attrition as a sign something is wrong.

And i would advise also reaching out to those still there to ask what unique things keep them coming back and if there's any suggestions for enhancing/strengthening that! As well as any things that impede your goals that you may not have seen on first pass.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@mietze Raph Koster once described this as the 3/8 month slump. A large number of players quit after three months -- that's when the new shiny has worn off. Another large number quits after 8 months -- that's when they feel they've done it all. Anyone who stays after that is staying until the plug is pulled. It's pretty damn important in game design to keep in mind which of these three you are designing for -- otherwise, you might not survive the first mass departure, and definitely not the second.

[Auspice]

re: rank options in cg that you can't choose...that is an FS3 thing. If the rank is being used, it needs to be in the system.

Now if it was selectable, it may just be they didnt/forgot to flag it as not an option in cg. Remember that Cobalt and NGC are still learning Ares and FS3 both.

[cyberdemon]

@Sunny said in Euphoria - Feedback:

It's not you, it's me -- and you're starting up a game months into a global pandemic. Low engagement is a thing.

I would think that such a thing would increase online activity of this sort, not decrease it, since people are no longer permitted to have normal social lives in many jurisdictions.

[Sunny]

@cyberdemon

You would think, but it's actually exactly the opposite. People might have the time, but they don't have the energy or resilience to engage in a meaningful way.

[cyberdemon]

@Sunny I can't speak for the world, but I know that I'm not suffering from that kind of lethargy. I've made time for personal projects, I started moonlighting for extra cash, and I have spent a lot more time with people in my social circles who moved away for work since it's all online now.