Optional Realities & Project Redshift

crayon

So, why are we still having this discussion? They said they wanted to treat this place like twitter and announce their new posts. Move on. They're certainly not interested in addressing the discrimination inherent in their website's design and that's perfectly fine since none of us are involved in paying for keeping it on the net. Ya'll are acting like anything they say about anything means anything.

I think discrimination in this context is kind of ridiculous, but in a very basic sense, stripped of connotation, it's accurate. Our criteria for games is discriminatory. We are discriminant. In much the same way a man who loves chicken might discriminate by going to Popeyes. Why does this need to be addressed? @Thenomain has tried to articulate a reason, and if there is a compelling reason, I'd really like to hear it, but so far nobody's really offered one that I've found sensible. Rather than giving a reason, most people have opted to insults, or just opted out.

@Thenomain said:

You did. It's on your first page.

I'm not seeing it. Maybe it's because we've refined our mission statements to ensure language matches intent, though I don't think there's been any significant change (@Jeshin should be able to clear this up, I imagine), but what I'm reading is:

"Optional Realities is a community and design blog for text-based, online Roleplaying Games with a focus on character and story-driven games that include permanent death as a feature. While many call this genre of game an RPI (Roleplaying-Intensive Game), Optional Realities is dedicated to all text-based Roleplaying Games of this nature, whether they be MUDs, or MOOs, or MUXs, or MUSHes, or RPIs, or any of the other sub-genres that we've divided ourselves into over the years."

I think that's pretty clear as far as the focus of our community goes. It doesn't really delve into the 'automated systems' component of the criteria, but that's borderline implicit in the genre mention and in the permanent death feature itself.

@WTFE said:

is that you stop shitting over here where you hold the people in such obvious disdain that you won't even actually discuss your goals or basic principles

I don't hold this community in general in any sort of disdain, though some of the individuals in it are particularly unimpressive. Let me basically summarize how this has gone:

People get upset about our criteria for community partnership.
We elaborate on the criteria, explain why we have them, and reiterate that our community has a focus group but is inclusive of discussion in a much broader spectrum.
People continue to debate our criteria, though I'm skeptical that they could name three (3) (that's your thumb, index, and middle fingers when you need to count off to double check, @WTFE) games that have applied that we've actually rejected.
We again explain that our community has a narrow focus group but that we're inclusive of broader discussion topics, insofar as we can be while still having said focus.
We go back to rote advertising because the debate's about run its course.
The thread blows up with insults because we've stopped engaging with a debate that's no longer interesting and that has long since ceased to have a point.

@WTFE said:

Yes. The inclusive "if you're not matching our specific idea of what games are, you can go to the back of the bus^W^W^W^WOther Games area of the board" approach.

Can you go ahead and break Godwin's Law, since you've already gone ahead and started analogizing building a community around a core focus group while incorporating discussion of concepts with broader ramifications to Jim Crow laws?

@WTFE said:

That's 390 opportunities for you express your interest in this community and actually start participating in it. 390 opportunities that you not only ignored, in some cases you practically spit upon.

I've engaged with several members of this community, but at some point enough becomes enough. If you're upset that your vitriolic attacks aren't getting enough attention you're just going to have to live with it or learn to be a more interesting person to converse with because so far you've been about as interesting and engaging as a tree stump.

@Thenomain, if you're interested in chatting somewhere that hasn't slowly transformed into a public restroom, I do respond to chat messages here when I have time to stop in. It's unlikely I'll be putting too much effort in responding directly in this thread, though, unless I see a particularly interesting point.

In any event, just to make some final points before I mentally sublimate @WTFE into some sort of attention-hungry tree stump...

@WTFE said:

See, this is why I think you're a yapping little shih-tzu. Dude, I fucking LINKED to my first post in this thread. Please point to where I called you names in it or where I insinuated that you are in some way awful people for targeting a specific subset of games. (Hint: this is not possible.)

@WTFE said:

You're here, presumably, given that this is in the "Adver-tis-ments" section of the board, to get people to want to come over to your community. And yet here we have you saying, basically, that you're more open to different opinions there than you are here.

This is a strawman. We have limited time here, as Jeshin immediately expressed afterwards. Further, it's not that we're not open to different opinions so much as those opinions haven't been made in a particularly compelling way. I understand what @Thenomain and recently @Sunny have been trying to express in that catering to a specific focus group while still engaging in a lot of broader discourse can send mixed messages. That sort of criticism and discussion is appreciated and I think there's a lot we could do to be more clear about what, exactly, the community we're building is, or is supposed to be.

@WTFE said:

Do you genuinely not see how stupid this is?

Hey, look, here you are immediately calling us stupid in your very first post based on words you inserted into @Jeshin's mouth.

@WTFE said:

where I insinuated that you are in some way awful people for targeting a specific subset of games.

Right here. Also in your very first post. Hey, look, I read it.

@WTFE said:

By being so dogmatic, rigid, and inflexible, and by sticking to a definition of game that specifically excludes the styles played by most people on this board, you are actually being off-putting.

Hey, look, here you are immediately starting to attack us for sticking to a narrow subset of games within a genre that only appeals to a minority percentage of people on this board. If I make a Digimon MUSH and advertise it here are you going to come throw a fit in the thread because the majority of this forum's participants prefer Pokemon? Get the fuck over it, man. I don't really care if you think it's somehow ideologically reprehensible when Pepsi advertises in a neighborhood where most people prefer Coke regardless of the fact that some Coke-drinkers might like a few Pepsi products.

Sunny

@crayon said:

@WTFE said:

Do you genuinely not see how stupid this is?

Hey, look, here you are immediately calling us stupid in your very first post based on words you inserted into @Jeshin's mouth.

Sigh. No. That's a question. In the same sentence you accuse of inserting words into someone's mouth and then do the same thing.

I think that's pretty clear as far as the focus of our community goes. It doesn't really delve into the 'automated systems' component of the criteria, but that's borderline implicit in the genre mention and in the permanent death feature itself.

That's great. It's about clear as mud. Do you know why people get other people to proofread their work? Because when they've written it, they have a hard time spotting the mistakes. It's clear in your head, but that's about it.

I don't hold this community in general in any sort of disdain, though some of the individuals in it are particularly unimpressive.

Then quit acting like it. I'm not calling you a condescending prick because I don't like RPI muds. You're summarizing your perspective, which I can guarantee isn't seen the same way. You make ridiculous statements as if they were fact ('how this has gone', rather than 'how this has gone from my perspective', and YES, in a community that revolves around text-based communication it is absolutely an important distinction, particularly when what you're getting called out for is being a condescending jerk).

I understand what @Thenomain and recently @Sunny have been trying to express in that catering to a specific focus group while still engaging in a lot of broader discourse can send mixed messages.

Then you don't understand at all, because that's not what I am saying. Maybe Theno is, IDK, but that's not my point.

Hey, look, here you are immediately starting to attack us for ...

That's not an attack. That's an attempt to explain that you catch more flies with honey. Because you weren't paying attention then, and you're not paying attention now. Still. Your analogy falls flat. What you've done is walked into a room where everyone is drinking coke, didn't check, and started insulting coke-drinkers because OBVIOUSLY people ought to prefer Pepsi.

ETA: Also, yes. If you came onto a Coke forum and started advertising for Pepsi, I imagine those folks would get pretty annoyed. They're not there to talk about Pepsi. Y'all came into a discussion forum and said you weren't interested in discussion.

WTFE

@crayon said:

@WTFE said:

is that you stop shitting over here where you hold the people in such obvious disdain that you won't even actually discuss your goals or basic principles

I don't hold this community in general in any sort of disdain, though some of the individuals in it are particularly unimpressive. Let me basically summarize how this has gone:

People get upset about our criteria for community partnership.

No. People get upset about your "let's bridge the divide" rhetoric on the one hand and the "only these narrow games need bother applying" on the other. Nice try, Skippy, but I already pointed out to your asthmatic pit bull there, Tricky Dicky, that the record is actually here. This is stuff that can be checked.

We elaborate on the criteria, explain why we have them, and reiterate that our community has a focus group but is inclusive of discussion in a much broader spectrum.

Yes. You "include" in the same way that blacks were "included" in the public bus systems of the '50s.

People continue to debate our criteria, though I'm skeptical that they could name three (3) (that's your thumb, index, and middle fingers when you need to count off to double check, @WTFE) games that have applied that we've actually rejected.

"We don't discriminate against niggers. How dare you impugn our good name like that! We just don't have any niggers applying for jobs here. Look, right over there, at the wicket labelled 'for niggers'!"

We again explain that our community has a narrow focus group but that we're inclusive of broader discussion topics, insofar as we can be while still having said focus.

Yes. You "include" in the same way that blacks were "included" in the public bus systems of the '50s.

We go back to rote advertising because the debate's about run its course.

Where "debate" is defined as "completely ignoring anything said to you and waiting for your turn to state your party line again". You know. Like your country's Republican "debates" that were on the all-circus, all-the-time channel recently.

The thread blows up with insults because we've stopped engaging with a debate that's no longer interesting and that has long since ceased to have a point.

The thread blows up with insults because 400 messages deep into your condescending ignorance people got fed up with you painfully weasely little shits.

I've engaged with several members of this community, but at some point enough becomes enough.

No. You. Haven't.

You've ignored everything said to you except where you distorted it into straw man fallacies so that you could tell us how right you are. If that's "engagement" I have a doubly-strong reason to never open up your shit web site.

It's unlikely I'll be putting too much effort in responding directly in this thread, though, unless I see a particularly interesting point.

Is this your third or fourth "bowing out" now? I've lost track.

You're here, presumably, given that this is in the "Adver-tis-ments" section of the board, to get people to want to come over to your community. And yet here we have you saying, basically, that you're more open to different opinions there than you are here.

This is a strawman.

No. No it is not. It is a paraphrasing of @Jeshin's long-winded sentence distilled to its essence. It's also a paraphrasing of what you've said several times … before I even spoke a word on this thread.

We have limited time here, as Jeshin immediately expressed afterwards.

So, make up your mind. Are you "engaging" or do you not have any time to engage? You can't have it both ways, Yappy.

That sort of criticism and discussion is appreciated and I think there's a lot we could do to be more clear about what, exactly, the community we're building is, or is supposed to be.

So "appreciated" you ignored that point for almost 350 messages. I mean utterly ignored it. Talked past it. Reiterated your view without taking even a single syllable of what @Thenomain was saying into your verbiage.

Do you genuinely not see how stupid this is?

Hey, look, here you are immediately calling us stupid in your very first post based on words you inserted into @Jeshin's mouth.

No. I called your actions stupid. Telling people you want to come to your site that you won't talk to them unless it's on your site is stupid. Let me show you the difference:

@Jeshin's continued use of "Hey" at the beginning of his messages after he's been told by people that it annoys them is stupid.
You, Yappy the Wonder Dog, are a fucking idiotic pinhead.

See the difference? One describes @Jeshin's action, telling him that the action is ill-considered and leads to a bad result. The other describes you (correctly) as a fucking moron. It is a direct insult of you.

(Note, @Jaunt, since you lack a grasp on this, neither of these is the ad hominem fallacy. One is a criticism of an action, not an ad hominem fallacy. The other is an insult, again not an ad hominem fallacy.)

… I insinuated that you are in some way awful people for targeting a specific subset of games.

Right here. Also in your very first post. Hey, look, I read it.

By being so dogmatic, rigid, and inflexible, and by sticking to a definition of game that specifically excludes the styles played by most people on this board, you are actually being off-putting.

And nothing there, again, addresses you being awful people. And I actually still stand behind not thinking @Jeshin is an awful person, just a badly, badly, badly clueless one. Now I think you are an awful(ly stupid) person, but in that, again, as before, I'm criticising your actions.

You are being (describing an action here folks!) dogmatic, rigid, and inflexible. Not you are (describing the person here folks!) dogmatic, rigid, and inflexible.

Except now, in your case, I'm comfortable with the latter. Because I do think you're a slimy piece of disingenuous shit that has all the capacity to see the other side of a position that a small soap dish has.

WTFE

If you want a bit of a challenge for your palate, it's hard to go wrong with 五粮液/Wuliangye. The stuff I linked to (and depict below) is at the leading edge of their non-speciality line: 68%/136 proof of so-called "thick fragrance" 白酒/baijiu. If you want to give this a try, I do strongly recommend that you start with the weaker stuff (say around 45%/90 proof) because, while the higher-alcohol stuff has also a higher concentration of the flavours that make it well-rounded and tasty, the unexpected burn of 68% alcohol will be a distraction if you're unused to it. The 45% stuff is just fine. It's just not sublime like the really good stuff.

Ironically, 五粮液/Wuliangye is not well-known outside of China despite it being China's top brand. (The internationally-known 茅台/Moutai is a fairly distant second place.) The irony lies in the fact that "thick fragrance" hooch is far more palatable to the western palate than is the "sauce fragrance" of the more internationally-known brands. So people trying out Chinese liquors are trying them out with the style that is most likely to make them recoil in horror at the flavour…

Tasty Goodness

Ninjakitten

@Jaunt said:

Our community is a specific genre of MUD that is over 20 years old.

Okay, I've seen this bit caught in quotes several times, and it keeps getting on my nerves for, admittedly, no particularly good or directly relevant reason. But I'm going to talk about it anyway.

What does "over 20 years old" have to do with anything? Are we just supposed to be impressed by the longevity? Is it meant to suggest particular validity to the genre? Is the idea to imply we're johnny-come-latelies? Why is this the bit of info about your genre that you feel we need?

Our community is a general style of MUSH that is over 20 years old as well, and in fact even now I'm logged into one that's been open continuously since 1993*. Ooh, ah. Even just specifically World of Darkness MUSHes of "our" type have been around since 1992 at the latest.

Trust me to read this whole thread of argument and get hung up on a tangential detail like that.

*A particularly low-code one, too, although it's had a hell of a lot of "permadeath". Just generally with negotiation involved.

WTFE

It's not really tangential. It strikes to the heart of the matter. They think they're special and the One True Way and everybody else that they're "building bridges" with are inferiors they're out to uplift into civilization.

Christian missionaries, in short. The repulsive variety like the ones that worked Hawaii in the 19th century.

Coin

I tried to read this thread (even just the last five pages). I mean, i really did. But y'all are some wordy fuckers, oy. And also, there's little of substance.

TL;DR the folks from Optional Realities have come to advertise their site and ignored the explicit and implicit function and tradition of these forums when engaged by the locals. Also, @Jaunt has been doing this for over twenty years, @WTFE drinks a lot, and @Sunny should rename to Sunny of Arc!

i suggest you guys tighten up your arguments and make them more concise so I can enjoy them. Thank you!

BetterJudgment

You all (both champions and detractors) are sure putting a lot of energy into something that within a couple of years will go the way of all such sites and become a cenotaph for its founders' grandiosity.

Arkandel

@BetterJudgment True! Unlike the rest of what we do and talk about here which is guaranteed to pass the test of time with flying colors.

Jaunt

@WTFE said:

Note, @Jaunt, since you lack a grasp on this, neither of these is the ad hominem fallacy

Ad hominem doesn't need to be fallacious to be ad hominem. You're the one throwing the word fallacy around as though it somehow makes your dick look bigger. It doesn't.

@Ninjakitten said:

What does "over 20 years old" have to do with anything? Are we just supposed to be impressed by the longevity? Is it meant to suggest particular validity to the genre? Is the idea to imply we're johnny-come-latelies? Why is this the bit of info about your genre that you feel we need?

My implication was that our community is comparably old to the greater MUSH community, and has developed a subset of features that it holds as its "core". Those features are the very reason why our conversation and content is geared towards a specific type of game; they simply aren't relevant for all MUSHes, or all MUDs, but they are relevant for those that we feature on our site.

I suppose that I was hoping that drawing the parallel of time to the MUSH community would encourage folks not to think that we just arbitrarily decided what "core features" define the majority of the OR community. We didn't. They've been this way for a very long time. In fact, OR's significantly less rigid than any previous attempts at definition have been, which is precisely the reason why it's doing well, continually growing, and has a much broader variety of games than previous (failed) attempts at similar things.

But, we're not going to change our target audience to include all MUSHes, just because of some chest thumping. What about H+S MUDs? What about PK MUDs? What about "RPEs" with a very low standard for roleplay? No. We're not trying to be a community for every text-based game out there. Those communities already exist, and we're not attempting to compete with them.

@WTFE said:

It's not really tangential. It strikes to the heart of the matter. They think they're special and the One True Way and everybody else that they're "building bridges" with are inferiors they're out to uplift into civilization.

Christian missionaries, in short. The repulsive variety like the ones that worked Hawaii in the 19th century.

Nope. That's not what we think. We just wanted to create a hub for a community that has already existed for 20 years. Our attempts to "bridge the divide", as they were, are specifically geared at an internal divide that has existed within our community, as it's lacked a place for developers and players from different (but similar) games directly communicate ideas and promote to one another.

Some of the developers, players, and games here overlap with our core demographic, and others don't. Get the fuck over it.

Thenomain

@Arkandel said:

@BetterJudgment True! Unlike the rest of what we do and talk about here which is guaranteed to pass the test of time with flying colors.

This community has been around for, what, 10 years? The earliest Mush in, I believe, 1998. Pretty sure time has been tested.

Coin

@Thenomain said:

@Arkandel said:

@BetterJudgment True! Unlike the rest of what we do and talk about here which is guaranteed to pass the test of time with flying colors.

This community has been around for, what, 10 years? The earliest Mush in, I believe, 1998. Pretty sure time has been tested.

Time isn't tested, it does the testing. >.>

Sunny

Y'all get a break from me arguing this. I can't type well enough on my phone to be useful.

I started mushing in 1993. It just sounds pretentious. Many of those here are the same.

Also, nobody is bloody asking you to change your site to suit us. I personally want you to stop being dicknoses, and to just be honest about your site. Clearly, simply, no qualifiers.

Jaunt

@Sunny said:

Also, nobody is bloody asking you to change your site to suit us. I personally want you to stop being dicknoses, and to just be honest about your site. Clearly, simply, no qualifiers.

You're right, though mistakenly so. Some people are insisting, rather than asking, that we change our site to suit them.

Have I not been very direct and honest with my answers about Optional Realities, just as I promised I would be?

I have.

As far as being "dicknoses", I've purposefully used tone and language in my responses to mirror the tone and language aimed towards me. When someone asks me something without aggression, they'll get an answer without aggression.

Like when you asked me a few questions without insulting me, and I gave you clear and specific and accurate answers without insulting you. That's how most conversation works.

Misadventure

This is why I support the idea that advertisements should be in the semi-constructive area, and discussion threads for criticism should be linked from that ad, not hosted there.

I shouldn't have to read through this crap for an ad, and I shouldn't look for discussion threads on random topics in the ads section.

Three-Eyed Crow

This thread didn't start off too bad, honestly. Though it's definitely degraded beyond the point of constructive.

Arkandel

Yeah, I haven't been following this much but there's some serious nerdrage here.

Autumn

Something something pearls something something swine.

(Am I talking about your side? Yes. Yes, I am.)

Alzie

@crayon If you can't see the inherent discrimination in your opening statement being Optional Realities is a community and design blog for text-based, online Roleplaying Games with a focus on character and story-driven games that include permanent death as a feature while at the same time giving only games that conform to a completely different set of principles the spotlight then i'm afraid we can't help you. In any case, I do not care. As you stated, you can do whatever you want because it's your project and you're footing the bill, not us.

ThugHeaven

Here's a thought; why not actually really attempt to bridge the gap by discussing some of the projects that are being worked on or cross post some of the actual discussions, that might actually interest the mu*ers here? By cross post, I mean copy and paste the whole thing, not here click this link.

I dunno, I feel like this really could've been a good thing and it went so wrong. It just seems like there's a lot of tuning out and bad communication happening. I really feel like I'm watching a train wreck in super slow motion.

Maybe delete this shit, take a minute to rethink your strategy and come back? It really does feel like this is a "come over here and check out our site" thread. Which even if it IS allowed, it's kind of wrong...but that's my opinion. Meanwhile, people here are telling you why your site isn't working for them and....

Look, I don't want to sound like I'm bagging on you. But sometimes taking a step back and reassessing is a good thing.

P.S.
Harshlands wasn't the first RPI, Armageddon was.