Blood of Dragons

[Balerion]

@Rook Those rules are part of our agreement with GRRM and one of the reasons we were able to obtain his approval. There are limitations to playing with someone else's IP when you try to respect their wishes.

@Miss-Demeanor To begin with, I am not sure whether you are allowed to use that particular TT in that way. My understanding is that some (many?) TT companies prohibit their rules to be encoded into an on-line platform as it allows for a larger number of players to use the game without needing to own their books. Furthermore, when he sold the license to a table-top company, I strongly suspect that GRRM imagined the usual sort of usage of a TT, which involves a more limited audience and not a permanent on-line presence. That is why he has made a distinction between MU*s and TTs.

As for your other comment, see my response to Rook. We do not claim ownership for our own sake, we claim that it belongs to the game which ultimately belongs to GRRM as an authorized derivative work of his IP. I should also add that since all our characters are drawn from the family trees that we created, they are all our characters from start to finish.

[il-volpe]

@Balerion said:

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, GRRM did make it plain that he does not like people running on-line, fan-run games (such as MU*s) without his permission.

In essence, I don't think that's plain.

I don't conflate "Hrumph, I wish they had asked," with "I just hate it when people do this, and feel shat on by it," nor do I conflate "I refer them to your game," with "Your game is the only game I want to exist." What communication I have had with him (which is minimal and certainly not enough that he'd recognize me) makes me feel pretty confident of said opinions. I would even hazard that he wants games based on his world to be fun.

As for what he's comfortable with, if he was really just only comfortable with you special souls as gamemasters back in the day, I'd be a little surprised. The state of the fandom, and all the various games available based on IaF now make it pretty clear that he's pretty damn comfortable with people RPing in his world.

He sold the table-top rights to a specific company. Any issues with how the table-top game is being used would fall to the table-top company to deal with. Since he has not sold the MUSH rights, it is not strange that his approval would remain a case-by-case matter when it comes to such games.

Oh? And suppose somebody uses not just some of Green Ronin's source material to make a MUSH, but only that material? Would you then deem their game to be 'disrespectful' to Mr. Martin?

Exclusivity Rights matter. When BoD was in 'development' for all that time, rights to use the world setting for gaming had not been sold. The existence of the MUSH would devalue those rights if the buyer wanted an exclusive contract.

Actually, I've no beef with your advert saying that you're the only authorized game, as this is simply true. The aforementioned blog's (and etc) complaints that other games are horrible, bad, disrespectful, and illegal annoys me, as does BoD's policy of (I hear) banning players who talk about other games.

Again, trying to pretend otherwise just to not have to feel bad about going against his wishes is self-serving and nothing else.

I don't think it's against his wishes, nor in compliance with them. I don't think he has wishes, in particular, about it. I don't think you can sell rights for a game and then tell people they can't play it online. Or mess with the dice system if you are so inclined. It's self-serving to pretend that you've got exclusive rights to RP the theme. Especially when it's only other MUSHes that seem to bug you -- admittedly my following of blog is rare, but honestly, a person cannot have internet access and an interest in IaF fandom without eventually coming into contact with this. If it was really all about protecting the author's IP from these disrespectful games, the rabbiting about it would extend to the enormous number of play-by-post forum games, and to the Second Life sims, the latter of which seem to be actively encouraged.

[sthanheykel]

@il-volpe said:

For one, the man's an old D&D player.

And a GURPS one too, it makes me wonder how a GURPS ASOIAF MUSH would look like, probably wonderful.

[BetterJudgment]

Linda Antonsson and Elio García are skilled and energetic. They are überfans, and they seem to be more dedicated to GRRM's books than at times he has been himself. Unfortunately, they are also grandiose and deluded enough to think that their MU* characters' descriptions are copyrightable intellectual property and to pressure service providers to shut down sites that they think impinge on that property. This isn't about respecting GRRM's work or about serving a community of fans. Every time they've written about this, they make it clear that this is about their rights as mediators of this work. If you want to play on this game, do it knowing what you're feeding.

[il-volpe]

@BetterJudgment

Honestly, I think it's quite possibly a mistake to suppose that Elio García is responsible for much of the hijinks, and it's also quite likely true that he's done the better part of the skilled and useful stuff for the fandom. Grapeviney-hinty-shit there.

[Miss Demeanor]

Have you... ever played on a MU* that uses TT books for their rules? You still need to have the core books for whatever you're playing. Its not like the books are loaded wholesale into the MU*, I'm not even sure if that would be possible. But here, example time!

I want to play on a D&D MU*. Without having the D&D books, I could technically make a character, but I wouldn't know what the Feats I'd picked gave me mechanically, I wouldn't know what skills are class or cross-class, I wouldn't know how many dice to roll for my Lightning Bolt, so on and so forth.

See how that works?

As to the other part... since you didn't personally make the character that someone else put the time and effort into creating, I will call bullshit. You provided the family name and some potential background information to use in the effort they make to create the character. The character is still all them, however, since they are the ones that make it, flesh it out, and bring it to life. Trying to claim that you are personally responsible for each and every character created is ego on a scale equatable to megalomania.

[Jeshin]

I'm going to chime in here very briefly as I'm still thinking about other stuff and trying to avoid posting until I have it all sorted.

I have experience working with a game that is authorized specifically by the authors estate (Shadows of Isildur). In my experience with them the authorized game has no rights to issue cease and desist or closure requests to ISPs or other game owners. At best they have a responsibility to inform the authors estate (or copyright team) of any infringements they believe exist. Only the author (or estate) has the rights to issue cease and desist or closure requests.

That being said without knowing the agreement between GRRM and the staff of this game it'd be hard to determine where the lines are. For example Shadows of Isildur has to maintain a PG-13 rating as per their agreement with the Tolkien estate. They have to adhere to book canon in all major storyarcs. They also have a few other obligations but they do actually have a legal agreement and documentation of their status with the Tolkien estate. It is possible this game has one as well and if they were willing to share it might shed light on the situation one way or another.

[SG]

Just think of the entertainment if the Serenity crowd started playing there.

[il-volpe]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Have you... ever played on a MU* that uses TT books for their rules? You still need to have the core books for whatever you're playing. Its not like the books are loaded wholesale into the MU*, I'm not even sure if that would be possible.

Loading the books into the MU* would be totally possible, but that is a serious copyright violation.

So yeah, players must buy them. More or less. Actually, it's pretty darn easy to play a WoD game without the books, though you are doing pretty much what you do at a table-top game; asking a chum to look up a rule or two for you. Anomaly TrekMUX used the Last Unicorn Games Star Trek systems and hardly anybody had the books, yet we got by.

I'd guess that in this case, actually any IaF MUSH or other talky-typey-non-graphicsy RPG is the purview of Green Ronin games' license, and I know for fact that they give no fucks that IaF MUSHes and play-by-post forum games exist and don't even use their ruleset.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@Sunny said:

Yes, this is the Nymeria game, to save anyone else the time of going and looking.

This is another one of those times where I pine for the WORA archive, for a simple link to the insane history of Nymeria.

[Sunny]

@Three-Eyed-Crow said:

@Sunny said:

Yes, this is the Nymeria game, to save anyone else the time of going and looking.

This is another one of those times where I pine for the WORA archive, for a simple link to the insane history of Nymeria.

Bork bork bork.

[BetterJudgment]

@il-volpe said:

@BetterJudgment

Honestly, I think it's quite possibly a mistake to suppose that Elio García is responsible for much of the hijinks, and it's also quite likely true that he's done the better part of the skilled and useful stuff for the fandom. Grapeviney-hinty-shit there.

I'll bow to your certainly superior knowledge. It is kind of hard to imagine Nymeria doing much other than threatening and posturing; on Elendor, someone one correctly (and humorously) referred to her years-old character bit as "furniture."

[BetterJudgment]

@Jeshin said:

That being said without knowing the agreement between GRRM and the staff of this game it'd be hard to determine where the lines are. For example Shadows of Isildur has to maintain a PG-13 rating as per their agreement with the Tolkien estate. They have to adhere to book canon in all major storyarcs. They also have a few other obligations but they do actually have a legal agreement and documentation of their status with the Tolkien estate. It is possible this game has one as well and if they were willing to share it might shed light on the situation one way or another.

Isn't part of SoI's agreement with Middle-earth Enterprises* that the game not profit in any way, either from the game itself or from its site? I know it was Google ads on the site that prompted them to send Traithe the cease-and-desist letter that I assume led to this agreement. As far as I know they never bothered Elendor, which had been established longer and which post-Jackson trilogy got huge for a while before slowly dying.

(This is starting to look like it should be a different thread. Games and IP, maybe?)

* edited: I just looked it up, and the former "Tolkien Enterprises" is now "Middle-earth Enterprises" though still a division of The Saul Zaentz Company. At least on Wikipedia, Shadows of Isildur is not listed as a licensee of Middle-earth Enterprises, and the Tolkien Estate doesn't list any licensees.

[Jeshin]

@BetterJudgment

I'm not sure. My involvement with Shadows of Isildur was as an advisor on game economies for Shadows of Isildur: Laketown. I know that they still hold an active agreement with the Tolkien Estate across the 3 iteration of SOI that have existed. I can ask Icarus to give me a brief history of the situation if you like and I can bring what he tells me back? Otherwise don't know personally.

[il-volpe]

I'm curious. It's interesting to hear about such an agreement, I've never heard of a truly official one.

I'm pretty sure BoD's one isn't a legal document, just a between-people agreement, as are all the other author-MU* developer agreements I've ever heard about. (Except maybe that really weird one between Anne McCaffery and PernMUSH way back when, when she told them they could continue to exist as long as they took Benden Weyr and Ruatha Hold off the game?) So yeah, probably it does belong in another thread.

[Thenomain]

When people who aren't lawyers or legally representative start pointing fingers for fan-created derivative works reminds me of the 1960s ... 50s ... let's keep on going backwards, shall we.

Unofficially, I see this thread as a lot of "nuh-uh" and "no you" and best of all, "better than thou". I've seen fans act this way before. I've seen authors act this way before. Both GRRM's and those who say they represent him have helped me not only not want to pick up his books, but avoid them. Nice.

[Rook]

Money is the root of all things in gaming that I hold evil. That includes "IP strongholds". I don't buy anything any more with the intent of using it for a non-personal game. I either use free systems, or I design my own. That thinking has led me to avoid support all proprietary efforts/projects that involve any sort of NDA or 'Agreement' that douses my rights to talk about it, change it, etc.

This may sound very basement-dwelling neckbeardish, but hey, any project I do or support is my choice.

I agree with @Thenomain. Personally, the attitudes of those running projects is just as important as the stated goal and direction of the project. I avoid those represented as this one is here.

[BigDaddyAmin]

I suppose life must be getting pretty stale on Blood of Dragons for Balerion to come on here and advertise. All the old guard, sitting about, idling I would imagine.

Thenomain is right. When non-legal counsel start making legal threats, it is probably best to walk away. It is like watching a Mormon and a Jehovah's Witness engage in a circle jerk.

[Thenomain]

I admit, I am enjoying Cry Plays Telltale's Game of Thrones, tho. Youtube and Cryotic get my ad-supported money, and I recommend that you listen to Cry's dulcet tones and amusing side-bars. The game seems more like fan-service than their Walking Dead, but it's still well-written and does not suffer death-of-the-week.

I'm enjoying it, save for the story appears to be stuck on "not moving forward", but I understand that's a very GRRM thing to do.

---

Respect is a funny thing. I'm going to say respect and humility are not related, though I think they should be.

I'm also going to say that the challenging here about what "respect" is and means does not mean they're being hammered on, @Olsson. (Well, except for @WTFE, but he cut through everything that was going to be said before it was said. That's simply his way.)

---

The lesson learned here is: Buy more Telltale Games games, and watch Cry Plays the World. I've never dared play a Metal Gear game and he's doing MG3 right now. I'm finally understanding a whole range of nerd jokes.

[3543thrh67]

Cryotic does have a pretty hot voice.