Something Completely Different
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Or maybe the person who caused the entire issue to begin with could apologize for their awful behavior and folks could start to move on.
How is the size of the protest proof that it's a problem? How does that even make any sense?
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@sunny same argument against any social movement people hate to blame the protest and the actions of the those fighting back not the cause of the protest.
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@saosmash said in Something Completely Different:
@lotherio "from the outside"?
I like how I'm being put into a clique by the group now, I'm just saying it doesn't look good.
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@lotherio you are exhibiting no understanding of what words like “minority” or “bully” mean, even conceptually
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Fine I'll be the new scapegoat, everyone can be upset with me now. You can try to paint me as ignorant or not understanding.
I'm just a surge protector doing my job, sir.
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the optics are more important than the protection of real, vulnerable people who had actual bad actions taken towards them
it's pretty simple, dood
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@lotherio I also saw the behaviors you're speaking of. Thank you for speaking up where I don't have the spoons to get into it now.
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@lotherio said in Something Completely Different:
Fine I'll be the new scapegoat, everyone can be upset with me now. You can try to paint me as ignorant or not understanding.
I think you are misunderstanding people's complaints. No one wants a scapegoat, and they especially don't want you to be the scapegoat: their anger is largely reserved for other people in this issue. To the degree anyone is angry at you, I think that's because they're exasperated that you seem to be defending one side using underhanded tactics like implying that you are a detached and therefore objective observer, or misrepresenting Auspice's personal problems for the sake of villainizing your opponents.
I don't say you are being underhanded, whether deliberately or accidentally. Miscommunications happen all the time, so I'm not judging. I just think you are letting your defensiveness get in the way of actually understanding the arguments people are bringing to you. If anyone who's been yelling at you thinks I've misread their anger, then they are free to correct me and you obviously should listen to them instead of me.
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@greenflashlight That's reasonable. I'm not trying to defend anyone and sorry its coming off that way. I'm in the boat that Gany said they'd look at things when they're all together again and reconsider. I trust Gany is where I'm coming from.
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@lotherio Sure. And this isn't a criticism or an attempt to get you to change your mind; I'm just laying stuff out in the hopes that being open and direct will serve as some kind of example for people because apparently I think I'm the one who can save this community Jesus Christ what a petty thing for me to grow a messiah complex about--
Okay, I'm just gonna pretend that rant didn't happen and sit on it until I have time to really sit with that feeling. Let's move on, shall we? We'll pick it up at "open and direct."
I think a lot of people in the community still feel very hurt by the events of the last weeks, and one of the effects of pain is to draw our attention inward. Those of us who have been hurt fixate on what was done to us, reliving it in our minds, keeping it fresh, not forgetting it. So when you come along and start talking like we don't have legitimate pain to deal with, it doesn't occur to us that maybe you didn't see all the causes for grievance or maybe you did but forgot them or whatever. It's a touch on an open wound, and I'm guessing us yelling at you feels pretty much the same to you, right?
And of course the whole situation is made worse by it being illegal to talk about it in anything but the most non-specific terms I can conjure, so I can't try to build a bridge by saying, "Hey, I know you don't see it this way, but User X did Shitty Thing Y that really hurt me because Feelings And Context Z, so it stings when you minimize that even unintentionally." I CAN say I'm sorry about dogpiling you, and that I thought your apology was pretty graceful of you; and I do say those things, for the record, even though it kind of makes my teeth grind that under current legislation the deliberate erasure of context makes me feel like I'm participating in a propaganda campaign to make sure the argument seems as one-sided as possible. But you didn't erase anything, so it's not fair hold you accountable for any of that. You deserve an apology.
Sooooo...yeah, I think I've run out of things I am allowed to say. I really do hope this post was helpful in rebuilding trust, or at least explaining why in the current climate I can't reach out and show as much vulnerability as I otherwise would.
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I did not tell Tinuviel that I would remove Derp.
I explained to Tinuviel what I believed to be the issue that caused the problem in the Politics thread, which was my failure to lay out my expectations to Derp when he took the position. I also explained I did not think it was fair to hold Derp accountable for an undisclosed expectation, and how I asked him to "stay out of the fray," which largely meant not to post anything further in any of the topics.
This was also explained to krmbm.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@greenflashlight I have a great deal of respect for you, I always have. You're more even keeled than you may realize and are good at saying many a thing very rationally. Moons ago you are the one that brought up the idea of player liaisons to help bridge between players and staff on games. I still think that was a brilliant idea (even with some of the counter arguments making sense). I think you do have a level head and I'd follow you as a community leader.
I have respect for others who have dogpiled me, even though I was reached out to in DM and suggested I was a flying monkey by one of them, I still respect them. They've said lots of sane things throughout the years.
I'm just at the point that someone said, hey lets stop this until we can rationally look at things. But its still going, not saying they don't have a right to feel hurt.
When all this went down I was on vacation (1st week of may - a week and a half ago), it was a flash fire. My perspective is that it all looks one sided, not because something bad happened, but because it was asked to let Mods review things when they can be rationalize a little. There are still snarky comments being said towards Mods. I support the right to protest, but understanding the great civil rights folks that support this today do so with the idea that civil disobedience is intentional and intended to provoke some sort of response or reaction. Mods have said how they're going to react.
I see I'm coming out of this disliked and that's okay. I just felt some voice was left unheard in the middle, but its painting me as taking a side. I'm used to it, I'm Libertarian, I'm not right nor left but each accuses me of being the other when I don't agree with them.
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@lotherio said in Something Completely Different:
I'm just at the point that someone said, hey lets stop this until we can rationally look at things.
I mostly agree there's not much point to talking about it, but only because we can't talk about it. Otherwise, I'd be happy to sit down with you and hash this thing out until we're both satisfied.
Anyway. You're cool and I got no grudges against you. I'm not interested in re-litigating the dumb crap that's been going on around here because honestly, at this point, done is done. The only reason I bring it up is because I have this dumb hippie fantasy that if we could just all sit down and talk about shit without getting all weird and defensive, we could sort this whole thing out.
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@greenflashlight said in Something Completely Different:
The only reason I bring it up is because I have this dumb hippie fantasy that if we could just all sit down and talk about shit without getting all weird and defensive, we could sort this whole thing out.
This shows in the things you write, if you stick around, you should see about illing the vacancy, not that I want to talk about that, that vacancy is a big hole to fill.
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@lotherio I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I think my theories on how to moderate would be extremely at odds with the rest of the team.
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@ganymede You said you were going to clarify he was only helping with the technical side of things. But he seems to be admining.
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@smile said in Something Completely Different:
You said you were going to clarify he was only helping with the technical side of things. But he seems to be admining.
No, I said he was doing tech advising and staying out of the fray. The "fray" was the constant and continuous attacks leveled at him in the Hog Pit at the time.
Looking back at the thread opened to attack him, he did very little to defend himself, something which he was more than capable of doing. He did precisely what I asked of him.
Derp has been helping us out since we migrated into Digital Ocean and got set up again. He is quite literally responsible (along with Testament and Faraday) for why we still have all of the old posts and transported successfully (because the rest of us at the time were not technically-literate).
But, yes, he has also been a third voice for mietze and I. His recent post of our new Code of Conduct was something all three of us worked on diligently for a few days. He announced the opening of the locked threads on my request, as I was at work; he posted up instructions on how to ignore categories, threads, and users as well because I asked him to.
There are still many issues to work through. That's why I am looking for people interested in joining the team. Voices are important.
I realize that I am coming off as terse and standoffish, and I apologize for that, but I am still processing recent events and am trying to be as effective as I can now that mietze is stepping back for a well-deserved break.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede said in Something Completely Different:
He is quite literally responsible (along with Testament and Faraday) for why we still have all of the old posts and transported successfully (because the rest of us at the time were not technically-literate).
This makes me think you feel like you owe him some level of community moderation authority just because he's good at the tech side. I sincerely hope that's not the case, and will simply say that while he seems fully competent at doing the IT side of things, he is not capable of being a rational and balanced moderator, and should really be removed as such.
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@misterboring said in Something Completely Different:
This makes me think you feel like you owe him some level of community moderation authority just because he's good at the tech side.
I trusted him enough to bring us from there to here. Since I laid out my expectations of him and all staff, I think he's done well.
As I said before, what happened in the Politics section was a failure of leadership. I should have laid out my expectations: that we don't get involved in political debates or discussions unless asked to do so. I am not going to presume that he was or should have been aware of this expectation because I have been heatedly involved in these very debates before, but it is something I have pulled away from since taking over for Arkandel and is something I think is important to follow. I have always believed in the maxim "unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments", so I believe it is unfair to remove him for what happened there. Instead, I take responsibility for that and I will continue to do so.
I am not and will not debate your opinion of him. I will simply repeat my position on the matter. I do not feel that I owe him anything except an apology for letting him get shellacked for my failure to lay down ground rules before letting him man his desk.
