What Would it Take to Repair the Community?

[Raemira]

@Ghost As someone who has been an impartial observer since the schism, calling people fucking punks in a post that is trying to discuss being respectful and civil and repairing a community is neither genuinely respectful nor civil. Better word choices could have been used to get the point across and maintain respectful civility. Or, just reiterating the point:

People could create a topic on another forum where they don't have to be respectful or civil to one another.

Word choices matter, especially in a discussion about trying to repair a community.

[TNP]

@Derp said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Let's not pretend that some of the BMD users have no axe to grind.

Honest question, can you blame them? Our board - and by our I mean all of the community - had their board basically hijacked out from under us. It was decided pretty much unilaterally that MSB would be something it never had been in any of its past incarnations. I've been here for all of them going back tot he original WORA before Nymeria got Tasteless Descs shut down.

The Mu* equivalent is a staffer stealing the database and newpasswording the old guard and anyone who dared to speak up. That kind of thing was pretty unanimously condemned back in the day.

Had some people wanted a kinder, gentler board, they should have just started their own. So yeah, people are not happy and have an axe to grind. They'll get over it. Maybe sometime in 2024 unless this board dies before that.

if you (general you) have a problem with what some posters here are saying, just don't engage. Ignoring them won't possibly cause anyone to say anything worse about you than they already are.

[Aria]

@simplications said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

What seems to happen way more in interpersonal relationships is simply that people can hurt each other in small ways that then spirals into actions of increasingly greater magnitude until both parties are hurt enough to make a move that changes the relationship. Most of the issues I've witnessed where relationships come to a head have been like this. No sole responsibility but instead a shared mess of poorly handled failures to communicate and mutual wounding of emotions and/or ego.

This is so spectacularly put and so profoundly true.

That's all!

[reimesu]

@TNP Then they can rename their board "WORA" and no one's going to give a damn. Not sure why they didn't, to be honest. I'd be all for it, myself. Take back the original name rather than trying to take a new one, you'll get all the people who liked that kind of thing.

[TNP]

@reimesu Honestly, WORA was a shithole. Each incarnation after it got a little better. I'm sure we all remember HR leaving because the place got too nice. MSB a couple months ago was a pretty nice compromise. It still had too many personal attacks but that's how people - all people - argue. They always seem to devolve into ad hominem attacks and I doubt that will ever change.

MSB was just how many people liked it. I'll even say most based on the number of active posters there compared to here and the number of active threads as well. But that's neither here nor there.

[reimesu]

@TNP I disagree. I know too many people who won't come to MSB because it was downright mean. And people who still won't because they don't trust it. Can't say I blame them, given how many times we've had to point out that people are attacking the person instead of the idea.

The fact that a whole group went and formed another board just so they could continue being really mean to people says more about them than this place, really.

[Hella]

@TNP said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

@Derp said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Let's not pretend that some of the BMD users have no axe to grind.

Honest question, can you blame them? Our board - and by our I mean all of the community - had their board basically hijacked out from under us. It was decided pretty much unilaterally that MSB would be something it never had been in any of its past incarnations. I've been here for all of them going back tot he original WORA before Nymeria got Tasteless Descs shut down.

I'm not sure I get the logic behind this. It kind of feels like saying a MUSH would be 'their' MUSH, just because they play on it.

There've been a ton of threads about this in the past and the general consensus (that I've seen) is that you wouldn't get to dictate rules of a MUSH just by playing on it (unless you were asked to do so, under a specific set of circumstances, I guess?) Otherwise, their game, their rules.

I don't see how MSB is different but I'd be interested in hearing that viewpoint.

[Selira]

@reimesu said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

The fact that a whole group went and formed another board just so they could continue being really mean to people

that's not why they made it.

many people were banned. people disagreed with the choice, with the administration, and people still wanted to be in a community with those banned people. so they made a new board where they could continue that community.

how much rewriting history are we going to do today?

[Tez]

@reimesu said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

The fact that a whole group went and formed another board just so they could continue being really mean to people says more about them than this place, really.

At best, this is disingenuous defamation. I would like to hear how this is not in fact a mod making a broad personal attack on those unable to answer it.

[mietze]

@reimesu I am sorry, but that is simply not true. A bunch of people were kicked out of this community many of whom never used profanity and in fact some of whom posted less frequently after asks to stop than a few posters who were never banned.

This board has been a community for them. A lot of people were reeling and wondering WTF happened. But the people who no longer felt welcome and those who were banned from here didn't want to lose community and so they made a new one.

The other community was starting to be formed before the new rules changes were even in effect.

Some people are going to be distressed about it for awhile. That's going to happen any time there's a blow up. And this one was a big one.

[reimesu]

@Selira @Mietze Well, if they'd made the choice to behave here, they wouldn't be there, now, would they? I mean, seriously, for a bunch of people committed to protecting mental health, the banned people didn't give much thought to who they were harming when they continued to throw their temper tantrums and then got banned for it.

So, they made another board where they could do what they want and be as mean as they wanted and STILL ended up with rules like here, but they're not enforced.

You can say what you want but your board is public and anyone can read for themselves. Just like the boards here are public.

However, again, feel free to respond, I'm pretty done with this idiotic argument.

[Selira]

@reimesu said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

@Selira @Mietze Well, if they'd made the choice to behave here, they wouldn't be there, now, would they? I mean, seriously, for a bunch of people committed to protecting mental health, the banned people didn't give much thought to who they were harming when they continued to throw their temper tantrums and then got banned for it.

So, they made another board where they could do what they want and be as mean as they wanted and STILL ended up with rules like here, but they're not enforced.

You can say what you want but your board is public and anyone can read for themselves. Just like the boards here are public.

However, again, feel free to respond, I'm pretty done with this idiotic argument.

You're right. All the posts are up there, on both boards, easy to read. We can all see you actively lying about what happened.

People were upset. People have a right to be upset. People are still upset.

It's also not my board. I'm a member of both. Still.

[mietze]

@reimesu what people protecting mental health? That has nothing to do with why the other board was created either.

A situation got out of control. Many things could have been handled better. They were not. And now there are two places with a lot of overlap and some distance that was a long time coming. There is still going to be hurt over it for awhile and it isn't one sided.

[Arkandel]

This forum's sole purpose was to bring the community together. It was the only thing that made it different from any other number of game-specific boards, Discord servers, etc.

A lot of effort is now going instead into who is right ("we") and who is wrong ("they"). Even much of the cross-pollination aims to do just that, or searches for some sense of closure that's definitely not forthcoming.

[Ghost]

@Raemira said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

@Ghost As someone who has been an impartial observer since the schism, calling people fucking punks in a post that is trying to discuss being respectful and civil and repairing a community is neither genuinely respectful nor civil. Better word choices could have been used to get the point across and maintain respectful civility. Or, just reiterating the point:

People could create a topic on another forum where they don't have to be respectful or civil to one another.

Word choices matter, especially in a discussion about trying to repair a community.

Eh, if I wanna call someone a punk, I'll call someone a punk. If I want to refer to people "being punks to each other" I'll refer to it as "being punks to each other."

[mietze]

@Arkandel yes, people are seeking closure that is simply never going to happen. I count myself in that, because I'm stupid. And yet, also human. However, I have seen this play out many times in RL, and also know it's part of the process. People will sort out eventually where they are most welcome. But honestly, it's been like 2 months. For some people that's enough time, for others it won't be. Maybe I shouldn't care, but I do.

[Ganymede]

@TNP said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Honest question, can you blame them? Our board - and by our I mean all of the community - had their board basically hijacked out from under us.

What do you mean by "hijacked"?

When Arkandel firmly pulled himself away, administration of this board was left to mietze and I. Between the two of us, we moderated in the manner to which we were accustomed. Neither of us were particularly tech-inclined, but Arkandel still kept us up to date with what was going on. The condition of MSB languished until the infrequent crashes became frequent, and the shutdown periods lasted for days instead of hours.

It was not until the board was literally crashing down that we came up with a solution. Faraday, Roz, and Derp joined me, mietze, Testament, and Arkandel in porting the database over to my Digital Ocean account. Arkandel passed the domain name over at that time as well. These are the facts; I have stated them before; and to my knowledge no one has disputed them.

So, there was no "hijacking," in my opinion, but yours may vary.

It was decided pretty much unilaterally that MSB would be something it never had been in any of its past incarnations. I've been here for all of them going back tot he original WORA before Nymeria got Tasteless Descs shut down.

As you know, I've been here that long as well.

If by "unilaterally," you mean "without consulting the rest of the community," then that would be an accurate conclusion. From my perspective in the room where the decision was made, it was not "unilateral" in the sense of unanimity. Arguments were presented, and a decision was made.

But I would wager that is not why many people left.

---

@mietze said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

yes, people are seeking closure that is simply never going to happen. I count myself in that, because I'm stupid. And yet, also human. However, I have seen this play out many times in RL, and also know it's part of the process.

Divorces are messy affairs, and I have seen many of them play out. Sometimes, there is peace; sometimes, there is war; but in every case, time plays a vital role in getting to a situation where hostilities are ceased, even if enmities remain.

I made the conscious decision not to be a member at BMD because I believe in the process and respect BMD's staff. If they want or need to talk to me, they know where to find me, and likewise.

[Derp]

@Arkandel said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

This forum's sole purpose was to bring the community together.

This point has been made many times, here and on the new board, and there's always an underlying thread that people gloss over:

we are not a community.

Or, more precisely, not one community. There are several different communities, philosophies, and ideologies lumped in that 'community', and frankly, some of them are incompatible in rather volatile ways. Which is why it's nice that there are two boards. People have choices. People can choose which set of rules/administrators/posters they want to interact with.

Keeping people on one forum was never going to work. People were already being driven off before the bannings. The bannings just reversed the polarity, much to the shock of a lot of people who didn't see themselves as being openly shitty a good lot of the time.

@Tez said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

I would like to hear how this is not in fact a mod making a broad personal attack on those unable to answer it.

You've said this multiple times, and it keeps coming up in the other thread.

Let me answer, clearly.

Those people are no longer current users of this forum, and they can't "defend themselves" due to clear consequences from their own actions after warnings.

[TNP]

@Derp said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Let me answer, clearly.

Those people are no longer current users of this forum, and they can't "defend themselves" due to clear consequences from their own actions after warnings.

So broad, personal attacks are fine so long as the target is banned?

[Derp]

@TNP

"These people went and made their own forum" is not a personal attack.

And also, by the standards of the users in question, yeah, apparently it is.