What Would it Take to Repair the Community?

[Ghost]

@ZombieGenesis said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Remember that there are actual people on the other end of these usernames. We often take the fact that we can see the actual human for granted and say things to or about them that we would never do in person. I know that's true of the internet, but I think it's especially relevant to here.

Just stop being judgy. Period. One of my biggest peeves is when someone does not like something, and they take on the mentality that it shouldn't exist. If you don't like something, ignore it. Don't attack it. Don't try and scare other people away from it.

I REALLY liked these.

I've thought about the first a lot through my time in the games. "I have no idea who this person is. They could be male when they say they're female. They could be older than they say they are. They're strangers." So with that I came to the realization that they could be more or less mentally/emotionally stable than me. They could be putting more or less stock into the game's outcome than me. I have no idea who this person is, what kind of life or day they've had, and what their emotional strength is...but I DO KNOW MINE.

In the few cases I've come across where I was in a situation where I questioned the mental/emotional health of a player to the point where I questioned their safety...it made me question how important it was for me to be RIGHT and instead question how necessary some argument or disagreement really was to me. Most of the time, even when I knew I was in the right, I just walked away.

The other players are people too, even if they're just text. Life is better when everyone treats each other like people with feelings.

WHICH LEADS INTO THE OTHER POINT ABOUT NOT BEING TOO JUDGY.

The same concepts apply to being over-judgmental. That could also be very rude or damaging to someone who you don't even know who they are. I've seen players made fun of like they were stupid for having bad spelling when in reality the player was very nice and spoke English as a second language. It's simply not necessary to be over-judgmental.

[Misadventure]

@Solstice I agree with what Derp said, and it's not benefitting me one bit.

Am I a sycophant, or am I someone with their own opinion worthy of consideration as a human being?

[Kestrel]

@Misadventure said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

@Solstice I agree with what Derp said, and it's not benefitting me one bit.

Am I a sycophant, or am I someone with their own opinion worthy of consideration as a human being?

The latter; I have no reason to doubt your sincerity and have never personally assumed any statement of yours to be inauthentic.

I would like to go on record however saying that I've never played Arx, have no intention of doing so (L&L not my theme), nor have I ever privately communicated with its staff members on any platform, nor with BMD's staff, or any of the usual suspects generally insinuated to be part of this "clique".

I'm a person who's been paying attention to the discussion on both of these boards and over on @Ghost's Reddit thread, and was able to arrive at her own conclusions after quite an extended period of sitting on the fence and letting people reveal themselves.

As I too was then swept under the label of "clique" (initially, ironically, for having stated that I wished to stay on the fence), I note that there's quite a lot of what you're describing going around, @Misadventure, though to be clear I'm not implicating you personally in it.

I think this broader conversation is being controlled by people peddling a lot of absolute fucking horseshit, and I don't need anyone else's borrowed opinions to smell the stink.

This is not a tale of two warring tribes, nor as @Derp puts it, friction resulting from "two very different groups of people interacting in the same space". This is a whole bunch of people cut from the same exact cloth, some of whom now have the weight of a banhammer behind their desire to win internet arguments, and some of whom don't. And, somewhat more enviably, the apparent wealth of mental fortitude with which to keep the spin going for this long, instead of just admitting to an ounce of accountability.

[Ghost]

@Kestrel said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

I'm a person who's been paying attention to the discussion on both of these boards and over on @Ghost's Reddit thread

Oh that's riiiiiiiiight I'd almost forgotten.

After that thread was necro for 3 weeks or so Kestrel decided to "check in" and throw barbs on that because things must have been boring.

Poke. Poke. Poke.

That's what's going on here and I don't think it's constructive at all.

[Kestrel]

@Ghost said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

@Kestrel said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

I'm a person who's been paying attention to the discussion on both of these boards and over on @Ghost's Reddit thread

Oh that's riiiiiiiiight I'd almost forgotten.

After that thread was necro for 3 weeks or so Kestrel decided to "check in" and throw barbs on that because things must have been boring.

Poke. Poke. Poke.

That's what's going on here and I don't think it's constructive at all.

Yeah I liked how you implied my throwaway troll comment makes me part of some secret cabal or that I've bullied you personally, even though literally the only conflict we've ever had on these boards was:

1. When you decided to persistently attack the creators of the 100 MUSH and everyone posting their support for the game on their ad thread, even though to my knowledge you didn't even play it, over some ancient beef with how they ran their last game.
2. When I advertised a pro-intersectional MU* community.
3. When you wanted to cast doubt on Azazello being exactly who everyone says he is.

Each of these conflicts being initiated by you, most of which I did not respond to.

Bruh if these boards have a bullying problem, you are it.

[Ghost]

@Kestrel said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Yeah I liked how you implied my throwaway troll comment makes me part of some secret cabal or that I've bullied you personally

Uh. What? I think you're reading into things quite a bit, there. I'm getting the feeling what you infer is more related to what you want to seek conflict about rather than what may be actually implied. However let me reassure you that I do not believe you are part of some kind of secret society cabal and that while I think you are a bully, I don't feel bullied or intimidated by you.

In fact, should you care to know, I think you have an attachment to this sort of negativity/conflict and the way you talk to others is probably more damaging to you than it would ever be to me.

While I've never been perfect (nobody is), I find it reassuring that your evidence that I'm some big bad bully is from like five years ago. Regardless, if I'm a bully I recommend you put me on ignore and stop seeking me out for conflict. I will also say that if you have any sort of baggage related to those events from years ago, PLEASE don't carry it around. I've introspected and revisted myself in terms of who I talk to on these forums and how.

I apologize if any of that stuff regarding that intersect community still sticks in your craw. While I disagreed with it, I was out of line on how I responded to it, so I apologize.

[Misadventure]

TL, DR: I don't think it's going to change. I also don't think it's exactly what people are saying it is.

@Kestrel Instead of tribes, perhaps social paradigms would be a better term. I personally prefer the term cluster, because it leaves whether anyone is closely linked out of it. And I see at least the two clusters being discussed.

The question for you becomes: what if people disagree with you and feel people were accountable enough?

I'm not satisfied with the accountability of actions here by non-staff, actions I find far more destructive than any administrative policing of a forum. Yet I manage. I even try to spot the tidbits I find engaging from anyone, even people I have argued with or would never trust as staff or a friend (unless they are on my never revisited blocked list).

[Kestrel]

@Ghost said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

while I think you are a bully

Any receipts, or are those waived for members of the anti-clique clique? It’s been a while since high-school, I don’t remember the club rules.

Thank you also for the armchair psychoanalysis, it was kind of you to take time out of your day to reflect on my wellbeing. As a return gesture, I would like to suggest that I think you’re projecting.

@Misadventure said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

The question for you becomes: what if people disagree with you and feel people were accountable enough?

Then I suppose we agree to disagree and make peace with the outcome. I still don’t think you’re being disingenuous, but I have a lot less confidence in those you put yours in, and must live with the incorrigible impulse to call a spade a spade.

[Solstice]

@Misadventure

Look, I see what you're getting at with this, but the optics are a tiny bit different because you're not someone who was deputized by the very party I'm criticizing.

I don't appreciate that dissent is being categorized as dehumanization, so yes, you're very much a human being - every bit as I am. We're just having a disagreement over who's shaking the keys to what was once a community and now is experiencing a painful rip through its center.

I am not someone who thinks people who I disagree with are somehow subhuman.

Cheers.

[Ganymede]

@Solstice

I think there is disagreement as to whether the community is now experiencing a painful rip or whether that actually happened a long time ago.

@Kestrel said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

This is not a tale of two warring tribes, nor as @Derp puts it, friction resulting from "two very different groups of people interacting in the same space".

This.

To reduce what has happened recently to a splitting of two groups is overly simplistic, in my opinion. I will admit that it seems that two "cliques" have separated themselves; however, from my privileged perch, I believe with strong certainty that this is merely the result of a long-standing feud that divided the community for quite a while. And, as for accountability, I admit my responsibility in splitting the community.

We now have two places with two separate identities. I do not think this is a bad thing at all. I hope that we can be cordial and cooperate when matters greater than us arise -- for example, if Cullen / Azazello / Surtr / whomever shows their head on BMD, I hope that someone will alert us so we decide whether to follow suit here before shit gets real -- but if not, so be it. To date, I only know of one request for cooperation, and that is maintaining the archives of arguments we still have here (Tributary asked us) for reference. It is a promise I intend to keep.

But, as I said before, time is probably what is needed to bridge any rift that can be fixed.

[faraday]

@Ghost said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Really, what would it fucking take to clear the air and make the environment more 'repaired'?

In terms of MSB? I don't think it can be. There's too much animosity, and too many of the active posters are now either unable (due to bans) or unwilling to return. Basically, there's no interest in repair, only in going separate ways.

Which honestly makes me sad, because I don't think the MUSH community is big enough to sustain two separate discussion forums, nor do I have much interest in having the same discussion in two places with two slightly-overlapping groups of people. It's the same reason I didn't try to promote the Ares forums more back when I first made them. I kinda hoped that people might gravitate to a more positive, constructive-only discussion environment, but I didn't honestly expect it.

In terms of MUSHing as a whole? I also don't think it can be either, because there are too many people who just don't like each other, and too many places willing to tolerate negativity.

You can have people who don't get along at the same venue, but you have to have structure that keeps them from getting at each others' throats.

It's like Thanksgiving with a dysfunctional family. You need Grandma to play peacemaker, or to rule with an iron fist (like Mal in Firefly: "Walk away from this table."). If you leave the door open to hot button topics and sniping, it's not gonna end well for anybody.

Individual games and forums can accomplish this by the rules of engagement they set forth.

[Ganymede]

@faraday said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

It's like Thanksgiving with a dysfunctional family. You need Grandma to play peacemaker, or to rule with an iron fist (like Mal in Firefly: "Walk away from this table.").

Clearly, you're Grandma, y'know.

Just pointing that out.

[Ghost]

@Ganymede said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

@faraday said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

It's like Thanksgiving with a dysfunctional family. You need Grandma to play peacemaker, or to rule with an iron fist (like Mal in Firefly: "Walk away from this table.").

Clearly, you're Grandma, y'know.

Just pointing that out.

Says the one who actually has the power to tell people to leave the dinner table.

You could be a candidate for grammaw too.

[Ganymede]

@Ghost said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Says the one who actually has the power to tell people to leave the dinner table.

Actually, I don't at the moment. I relinquished my duties as an admin as of June 30, 2022. I just keep the lights on now.

[Ghost]

@Ganymede July 1st must have felt nice.

Note: This comment was in the spirit of "After a lengthy, stressful period it must have been refreshing to take a break" and not anything negative about the forum itself. I recently left a job that had been a source of stress and the moment I realized I was free of some of those responsibilities, the relief-sigh was glorious.

[TNP]

@Ganymede said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

I hope that we can be cordial and cooperate when matters greater than us arise -- for example, if Cullen / Azazello / Surtr / whomever shows their head on BMD, I hope that someone will alert us so we decide whether to follow suit here before shit gets real

But that would be bullying, according to some posters that seem to have the approbation of admin. And being a bully is bad while calling someone a bully as a personal attack doesn't seem to get even a raised eyebrow, let alone any warnings.

[Arkandel]

@faraday said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Which honestly makes me sad, because I don't think the MUSH community is big enough to sustain two separate discussion forums

Unfortunately neither group seems to see this. Both are entrenched very much into the "we are right" argument, which is itself the problem. If there's a we there is also a they.

Community forums can't work like that. They mustn't. The only 'they' must be the true undesirables; predators, trolls, racists. That's it.

I guess it's likely the problem will fix itself. Either way, yeah, it's sad.

[Ganymede]

@TNP said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

But that would be bullying, according to some posters that seem to have the approbation of admin.

In the past, most people have reported creeps and stalkers like Cullen / Azazello / Surtr / whomever through DMs to me. When reports of this kind of activity have popped up, my practice was to ask the reporter to DM me to discuss whether there were any concerns that the alleged creeper / stalker was on this board and, if so, what would substantiate their belief. In some cases, there was substantiation (to my satisfaction); in others, not so much.

Cheating on games, exploiting code, blurring OOC and IC lines: these are things I didn't care about as an admin here. Creepers, stalkers, and doxxers? That's shit I took very seriously. But as creepers, stalkers, and doxxers often do very personal things and, in many cases, cause their victims to do embarrassing things, I preferred to take it to DMs because no one needs that laundry aired. Also, the point of my inquiry was ultimately to try and prevent further harm to the victim.

I guess what I'm getting it as if you suspect there is a creeper / stalker here I think you should inform staff so they can take action to make this place safer for you and probably others. As always, though, if you don't, that's fine too because no one should force anyone to go through trauma again.

---

@faraday said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Which honestly makes me sad, because I don't think the MUSH community is big enough to sustain two separate discussion forums

What do you mean by "sustain"?

To be honest, if people stop using boards like this then it is more probable that it is because other systems, like Discord and reddit, are sort of pushing independent boards like ours into the obsolete bin when it comes to finding new players, in my opinion. Also, the interest in our particular hobby, which was never strong to begin with, is no doubt dwindling further now that people can reliably play TT games over video. To boot, we also have had few innovations in the past five years, and it seems to me that our constructive discussions revolve around the same issues we've had since I began playing these games over 25 years ago.

If we're talking about this community, then I would agree that the split may kill us both, but as been stated by numerous people -- and I believe it -- our community is but a fraction of the total hobby population. If posting here is going down, it is possible, if not probable, that this is because many of our past active posters were more interested in posting without filters and enjoying being part of the regular spectacle.

What I can say is that I have no plans to shut this place down, as its maintenance is not particularly expensive. So long as people want to us it to advertise, discuss game design, or post up kitten pictures, it'll be around.

[reimesu]

@faraday said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Which honestly makes me sad, because I don't think the MUSH community is big enough to sustain two separate discussion forums,

Thing is, we've already had people pointing out that they're on other communities that discuss gaming. Which means there are more out there that we just don't know about. Which means the MU community very much IS able to sustain two separate discussion forums and possibly more. There's a huge amount of people who MUsh and don't come to either MSB or BMD. Let's not make the mistake of thinking we're the only two shows out there. We're not. We're just loud.

[Ganymede]

@reimesu said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

We're not. We're just loud.

And ugly.