The Case Against Real PBs

[Ganymede]

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Alright, let's test this.

Honestly, it's easier when you can present your position more succinctly. I have, like, ten posts to read and respond to. And you deserve a fair response.

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Let's say you use Sporty Spice (the best spice btw) as a PB and roleplay out an artful ts scene that just happens to include both your RL kinks and the kinks of the partner. This may or may not involve "chair gratification" by yourself or the other, which may or may not be admitted to.

Now, you're at dinner and someone brings a friend. It's Sporty Spice herself.

DO YOU TELL SPORTY SPICE THAT YOU HAVE USED HER LIKENESS AND IMAGE IN LINE WITH A SEXUALIZED SLASH-FIC SCENE WITH ANOTHER PLAYER WHO HAS A RL KINK FOR HER?

Of course not. I don't express my sexual desires to people I don't really know. That doesn't mean I don't have them, and it certainly doesn't mean mine are wrong or creepy.

... if the answer is no, I'm pretty sure that line of thinking will end in "...because it would embarrass me and come across as creepy."

Well, of course it would. Do you approach everyone you have a sexual desire for or fantasy about and confess it? I doubt that you do, but I wouldn't fault you for keeping it to yourself.

But going back to the first question, no, there's no harm in what you're proposing. There's no harm to Sporty Spice because they have no knowledge; there's no harm to me to keep my fan-fic making to myself; and there's no shame in keeping your private thoughts to yourself. My lack of shame may repulse you, but I can live with that and have no obligation to convince you of its rationality.

---

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Would it affect your life at all if someone you didn't know admitted to masturbating to pictures of you?

No.

What if they told you not only did they do kink-stuff using your likeness, but simulated a "relationship" with another person who was also gratified by your image?

Not at all. To each their own kinks? I might even be flattered.

---

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Maybe it's just me and I've been away from this shit long enough to step back from a 10,000 foot level and analyze how fucking weird this community can be.

You may feel that tall and above things, but I think that's due to your pedestal of self-righteousness. We've both participated actively in the hobby. And if we liken it to a vice like an addiction, the first step to actual recovery is to admit that you will always be an addict. I think you're just as much of a creepy weirdo as the rest of us, no matter how long you've spent outside of the hobby. The difference between us is that I accept this, but you apparently do not.

[Ghost]

@Ganymede said in The Case Against Real PBs:

You may feel that tall and above things, but I think that's due to your pedestal of self-righteousness. We've both participated actively in the hobby. And if we liken it to a vice like an addiction, the first step to actual recovery is to admit that you will always be an addict. I think you're just as much of a creepy weirdo as the rest of us, no matter how long you've spent outside of the hobby. The difference between us is that I accept this, but you apparently do not.

Wanna walk back that attack or write a paragraph about how it isn't? I thought better of you than this.

You may think I'm an asshole, but you're also the one who helped pen the policies about direct personal attacks soooooo

[Ganymede]

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

You may think I'm an asshole, but you're also the one who helped pen the policies about direct personal attacks soooooo

I'll walk it back if or when the admins ask me to; I don't tell them what to do. I still have a hat because I am occasionally called upon to do shit as the site owner.

I don't think you're an asshole; if I did, I would have said so. I actually still keep fond memories of you. What I think is that you don't think your shit stinks any more just because you have separated yourself from playing the game, even if you come by and visit for whatever reason. I cannot say why you feel the need to cast judgment against folks who aren't doing things that cause any direct harm to you or yours, but you clearly do.

What I'm saying is that you're one of us. If that's a personal attack that is against the rules, so be it. I wonder what it is that keeps you coming back.

[Misadventure]

Just a rando occurrence - was reading an author's blog and they had links to their own MidJourney created character images. They seem familiar to me, but I am exposed to a lot of AI character art in passing.

https://rddsmith.com/character-images/

I have many vague reasons to share this: they sorta remind me of real life actors, the images still look like paintings to me, serendipity, etc.

PS: @faraday just being reminded that there are people who can't visualize characters from text is enough for me to say if I were the head of a text based RP game I would be okay with PBs.
You'd think I would remember this since I have family and friends who have the same experience.
I'd still put images behind a spoiler tag or similar.

[Ghost]

@Ganymede don't mince fuckin words with long paragraphs trying to act like making an insult about your opinion of my ego and stating that I seem unable to accept an addiction as some worldly statement about everyone but it just happens to include me. You're playing around with attacks on a specific person's emotional center as well as playing armchair addiction advice to a specific stranger. You really think that's appropriate and/or responsible?

Now, gross analysis of other people's mental diagnoses may be the tits on that other forum (aka the same place that talked shit about you for months for not following their mutual bargaining directives when ownership changed), but here... it's against the rules. Probably because it could be truly damaging to complete strangers; perhaps even to the point of being dangerous.

For all you know your "necessary" and "probably felt good saying" words could have sent me into a RL spiral! Pedestals are pretty risky things to hang out on.

It doesn't bother me, I just have an allergy to fake shit. Own it. At least when I talk generalities about my feelings on the hobby and community I own my intentions and language. I suspect you felt free enough to break your own forum's rules because you leveraged that you could do it to someone you felt was unpopular enough that no one would call it out.

Regardless, this is incident #25,000 on this forum of someone saying some non-directed, unpopular stuff and it resulted in direct, potentially RL harmful attacks by the so-called "moral high ground" who felt reassured that they could say something mean at a nuisance without having to be responsible for it.

So how bout you leave your critical analysis of me out of these discussions, because trust me I wouldn't dare do the same thing to you. I see no benefit in taking the time to try to make "situational cruelty" look like a Jerry Springer Final Thought.

[Ghost]

@Misadventure said in The Case Against Real PBs:

PS: @faraday just being reminded that there are people who can't visualize characters from text is enough for me to say if I were the head of a text based RP game I would be okay with PBs.
You'd think I would remember this since I have family and friends who have the same experience.
I'd still put images behind a spoiler tag or similar.

Yeah this actually came up in convo I had lately with someone and I absolutely agree with this point.

There are ND people or others who have hard times turning text to mental imagery, and I think that's 1000% valid. Great points. And given the potentially high population of people this would help, it makes PBs seem much more relevant alltogether.

Does it change my stance about wanting to see good writing and seeing descriptions in prose? No. But the idea has given me something else to consider for sure.

[reimesu]

@Ghost This is strike two. You've already been told to tone it down. Don't have a strike three.

[Ghost]

@reimesu okay but do people with admin tags also have to follow forum rules? I'm asking for admin support to keep an eye out for people (me, in this case) in terms of direct attacks and public medical assumptions.

Absolutely toning it down and want to move on, but I feel it is potentially damaging and not okay.

[Ganymede]

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

don't mince fuckin words with long paragraphs trying to act like making an insult about your opinion of my ego and stating that I seem unable to accept an addiction as some worldly statement about everyone but it just happens to include me. You're playing around with attacks on a specific person's emotional center as well as playing armchair addiction advice to a specific stranger. You really think that's appropriate and/or responsible?

If this is your takeaway, then I'll take ownership for being unclear and misleading. Let me break down what I said a little better (hopefully).

@Ganymede said in The Case Against Real PBs:

You may feel that tall and above things, but I think that's due to your pedestal of self-righteousness.

I think you're acting self-righteous. I'm not the only one. I don't think you're taking umbrage to this part, though. I could be wrong.

We've both participated actively in the hobby. And if we liken it to a vice like an addiction, the first step to actual recovery is to admit that you will always be an addict.

I said that if we are going to liken participation in this hobby to a vice, like an addiction, then admitting that one will always be an addict is an important step to recovery. I say this from personal experience as an addict: breaking addictions is damn hard to do, but the first step is reminding yourself that you will always be an addict as a reminder that you can always lose control.

I didn't say you are an addict; I have no idea if you are or ever have been. But if you are, then I apologize. It's a day-to-day struggle; I get it. Addictions suck like cancer.

If you disagree with the premise of likening participation in this hobby to a vice, then this entire comment falls apart like wet drywall.

I think you're just as much of a creepy weirdo as the rest of us, no matter how long you've spent outside of the hobby. The difference between us is that I accept this, but you apparently do not.

I still think we're all creepy weirdos, but that's a personal opinion that I'm comfortable with.

---

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Now, gross analysis of other people's mental diagnoses may be the tits on that other forum (aka the same place that talked shit about you for months for not following their mutual bargaining directives when ownership changed), but here... it's against the rules. Probably because it could be truly damaging to complete strangers; perhaps even to the point of being dangerous.

The reasons for this forum taking the stance are well-documented. As for "mutual bargaining directives," I have no idea what they may have been going on about. The only "mutual bargaining" I can recall is someone -- I can't recall if it was Tributary? -- wanting to make sure that the Hog Pit was accessible here, or that links from the Hog Pit here was linkable over there -- something like that. And it's not really "mutual bargaining" if I'm not asking for anything; to my recollection, I've asked nothing from BMD's administrators, except for having them tell me if there's some sort of creeper going around to keep an eye open for. Anyhow, if shit's not working, no one's informed me about it.

If the folks over on BMD have an issue with anything over here, they can pretty DM me here. I know a handful of them have my personal email address. I can also be reached via Discord. I mostly just keep the lights on here.

[Ghost]

@Ganymede I'm gonna leave this alone, but next time I'd respect you attacked the idea. I'll keep the rest to myself.

[Ganymede]

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

I'm gonna leave this alone, but next time I'd respect you attacked the idea. I'll keep the rest to myself.

I did.

You wrote:

... my litmus test is "is it wrong to use a 'real' person's image (ex: Facebook, your RL girlfriend, or someone's mom) as a PB?" and if the answer is yes, then for the same reasons it's wrong to use celebrities, too.

I wrote:

There's no harm in using a picture in public domain

You provided an example and asked the following question:

DO YOU TELL << CELEBRITY >> THAT YOU HAVE USED << THEIR >> LIKENESS AND IMAGE IN LINE WITH A SEXUALIZED SLASH-FIC SCENE WITH ANOTHER PLAYER WHO HAS A RL KINK FOR HER?

I replied:

Of course not. I don't express my sexual desires to people I don't really know.

Then you asked, of another person (I think):

Would it affect your life at all if someone you didn't know admitted to masturbating to pictures of you?

To which I wrote:

No.

You asked another question:

What if they told you not only did they do kink-stuff using your likeness, but simulated a "relationship" with another person who was also gratified by your image?

To which I wrote:

Not at all. To each their own kinks? I might even be flattered.

I'm not sure how I can more directly answer the questions and ideas you've posed.

All that said, you are entitled to feel the way you do. My first response best sums up my feelings:

I think we're past the point of needing to justify our likes and dislikes, so this really reads to me like an attempt to shame.

In other words, you don't need to explain why you don't like real PBs to be used in wikis.

Some people would be horrified if they knew someone used their likeness for fap material; others are probably well aware that their likeness is used for fap material (I'm looking at you, Lea Seydoux). I fall towards the latter side, clearly, but it's a matter of personal opinion and taste.

To paraphrase my partner, we're all catfish looking for catfish who know they are catfishing ... so we're all a little bit creepy, in a self-aware and self-indulgent way.

[Derp]

@Ghost

To answer your question -- yes, the people with the admin tags are held to the same standards as everyone else. Naturally.

To that point -- you started a thread with a charged topic, got out of line yourself, got people riled up, and were given some grace. It's not the first time, and we generally make that judgment based on frequency and severity. It's a gut check.

Given that this is a charged topic and tempers are running hot, and we've strayed well outside the bounds of the original thesis? I think it's fair to say that we're extended some equal grace all around.

So, yes. Our admins are held to the same standards that we hold everyone else to.

You're welcome.

That said, the temperature of this entire thread should probably come down a bit. I don't think that we're anywhere near 'mildly constructive' right now.

[faraday]

@Ganymede said in The Case Against Real PBs:

What I'm saying is that you're one of us. If that's a personal attack that is against the rules, so be it.

I think that calling somebody a "creepy weirdo" can justifiably be considered a personal attack, even if it is followed by "like the rest of us."

I agree with the overall substance of your points, but c'mon - that last paragraph was throwing some gasoline (even if you didn't start the fire).

(I don't consider myself a creepy weirdo, for the record. A weird weirdo, for sure, but not a creepy one.)

[hobos]

Probably making myself a double pariah here but...

I kind of agree with you, Ghost. On the specific point of not using other human's pictures to play out sexual kinks, at least. It's creepy. Saying "well that person's general image is just public domain, when they go and choose to be famous they're constantly selling their virtual body and everything everyone might do with their virtual body ever, so...." is very very close to the similarly silly comment that "what we do in virtual space doesn't matter, so anyone who's ever been nonconsented on a game should've just logged off lololol".

And I also agree with everyone else saying that the way you're expressing yourself is overly aggressive and unnecessary.

But I'm pretty sure it's because of some kind of trauma, because while I'm loathe to call it "trauma" exactly -- considering it was completely virtual --- virtual trauma is a sort of trauma too, you know?

Like that's the sort of thing we discuss in this space. What matters in the virtual world, if anything at all? I'd say people feel many of the same sorts of things.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure you have some kind of issue because I have absolutely been in the place where someone was kind of hounding me for TS and trying to tell me what PBs to use and pushing me to find more PBs and in the end pulled some really weird predatory manipulative stuff that had been making me feel like I just wanted to quit.

Every time I read one of your posts in this thread, I think about that situation, and the way it made me feel was just so simultaneously disgusting and disgusted that I just, well, agree with you. And I can empathize with your tone, too.

It's just that the majority of people using PBs aren't bad actors like that.

[faraday]

@hobos said in The Case Against Real PBs:

I have absolutely been in the place where someone was kind of hounding me for TS and trying to tell me what PBs to use and pushing me to find more PBs and in the end pulled some really weird predatory manipulative stuff that had been making me feel like I just wanted to quit.

That is obviously awful, and I sympathize with anybody who's had to deal with that.

I think the only difference between us is that I see PBs as a symptom of the issue an not a cause. Because let's face it, people have been hounded for TS an faced with predatory manipulative crap long before using PBs was a widespread practice in MUs.

[Macha]

@faraday said in The Case Against Real PBs:

@Ganymede said in The Case Against Real PBs:

What I'm saying is that you're one of us. If that's a personal attack that is against the rules, so be it.

I think that calling somebody a "creepy weirdo" can justifiably be considered a personal attack, even if it is followed by "like the rest of us."

I agree with the overall substance of your points, but c'mon - that last paragraph was throwing some gasoline (even if you didn't start the fire).

(I don't consider myself a creepy weirdo, for the record. A weird weirdo, for sure, but not a creepy one.)

Oh thanks for putting Billy Joel in my mental jukebox for the day. Man, being ND can suck.

[Macha]

So I have felt very torn during this thread. Because I get Ghost's point, but like others, I can picture MY character, but not necessarily someone else's from text. So I get Reimesu's point, and Faraday's, and Ganymede's... and I like pretty much everyone in this thread, (other than those I don't really know), so I haven't really put forth much of an opinion.

I've been accused of being a 'creeper', you've all seen the 'evidence' and arguments. Even if the person who accused me later said on that 'other forum' that she found the proof that everything was agreed to, and discussed (And never said anything here) - I was accused. If I was going to play on a MU again, I could never use that PB again - and I chose her because something about her clicked with how I saw the character. I really liked the PB. So I see how Ghost thinks some people pick PBs for creepy reasons (even I just picked her because she fit my mental picture).

But I still love PBs for others, it helps me shift the picture of who they chose, with things they pose or put in the desc that may not match up with the image, and create a slightly different picture in my mind. (I hope that makes sense)

Now, I have never used Midjourney, I have no idea how good it is. But I will re-state that I would love an AI I could feed an idea or image, with parameters to tweak, to make a more 'perfect' PB.

[Macha]

@Misadventure So looking at those images, the male doctor? Is SO A Patrick Dempsey ripoff from Gray's Anatomy with what looks like a little Gregory House, MD mixed in.

The second? I mean she is NAMED Monica Gray. It's pretty close to Meredith Gray (Or Grey? Not sure, never watched the show), and that character def has some of the actress who played Meredith in there. I feel like there's some of Olivia Wilde's character from house in there, too.

But maybe that's just me.

[Misadventure]

@Macha Probably.

I wonder what the world (would) think of mixing real life people via AI. Is it the same as mixing in real life artwork, which I personally see as theft (mathematical alterations of input), or are peoples ' actual appearance feel different for some reason?

Not something I'd care to discuss here though.

I will say it is too much to ask that players alone or even collectively pay a dollar a day to subscribe to MidJournney just to make an image for a MU*.

[Ganymede]

@faraday

On retrospect and consideration, I concur.

I apologize, Ghost. I was in the wrong.