RL Anger
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@Thenomain said in RL Anger:
I lied.
DOUBLEPOST.
P.S. Are you saying that #notallmen isnt' the sort of thing that is distracting and derails a conversation regarding this topic?
Are you telling me that 141 characters isn't enough to have a nuanced conversation? Or that using self-identifying labels instead of clarifying your position is likely to cause harmful miscommunication, because I'm pretty sure it's both.
Also, I don't know what this #notallmen movement is, but I'm pretty sure I already hate them.
#notallmen is just the hashtag men were using for a while. I didn't use it as representative of a movement, just as representative of saying "not all men". It was just a figure of speech. Though yes, the people who used it were pretty much dumbasses.
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@Thenomain I promise you Theno, we do get pissed off at being lumped into generalizations as well, but that is why /I/ do not allow myself to be lumped into them emotionally.
Nobody tells me who I am anymore, I do that, because if I do not then I am /allowing/ others to have power over me. So if someone tries to use a generalization against me I just roll my eyes and move on.
Honestly that's how I feel, even if it's not something I can actually /do/ since the legal system will always have power over me, etc.
Also: @Arkandel it is interesting you think I am just 'reciting' talking points, rather than explaining how something feels. Just like considering the level of abuse thrown around to get pissy about "Reading Comprehension 101" after all of the /crap/ leveled around in this thread just shows that you seem to be unwilling to actually /listen/ to what is being written.
To respond to a small little snarky comment rather than the issue at hand is a pure deflection. To attempt to make it as if I am uncivilized and am therefor a barrier to discussion is both insulting and a deflection.
I wasn't implying people can't understand anything at all, quite the opposite as a matter of fact, that's what made it seem disingenuous to me.
The only thing standing in the way of civilized conversation on the topic, which you have now apparently abandoned as unworthy of your time, is the fact that you (and others) are not really conversing at this point. You're being defensive, deflective, and insulting.
If I am alienating anyone, it's because those who feel alienated might not be comfortable discussing hard issues that maybe they don't know how to fix, or are unwilling to fix.
It's /really/ easy to not care about something that, as you have said, you have never seen after all.
It's how politicians get away with War so easily. Public sentiment might change when it happened in /their/ living room.
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@Thenomain said in RL Anger:
It does answer my specific question, tho, about the conditions that Not All Men is a problem, so I won't complain. Well, not about that. I appreciate the candor.
To be clear... I wasn't taking issue with anything in particular you said, but just trying to answer your question about why it can be a problem.
And in response to some of the other sundry comments from the gallery, I will just add...
If someone says "All X do Y" and the response is "No, not all X do Y, stop making sweeping generalizations" then I think that's a totally appropriate way to re-frame the conversation.
But if someone says "There's a prevalent problem with X's doing Y" and the first thought is "But not all X do Y" or "But I'm an X and I don't do Y" then it's just missing the point, and it can make the other person feel even more marginalized than they already do.
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I just don't have the energy for the topic. I'm so freaking angry and frustrated at the way people are behaving that it makes me question even continuing to participate in this corner of the community.
I feel dismissed.
I feel marginalized.
Up until now, I would have maintained that while the hobby certainly has its issues, it's managed to avoid the worst of it and be something of a safe space, in general, to just be female. Presently, given the behavior of people that I otherwise respected, that I thought were understanding...yeah, no.
Way to turn a conversation about people being abused into something about why men feel bad when women talk about harassment/discrimination.So sorry that the fact that I was assaulted hurts somebody's feelings, or something.
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@Sunny Nobody is saying the fact you've been assaulted is offensive to their sensibilities. That is not what the argument(s) were about.
Moreover, while you have a viewpoint of someone who has experienced abuse in such a physical way, others have experienced abuse in other ways as well. Sometimes their experiences will cause their opinions to differ from yours. You should not take your opinion as having been dismissed or marginalized; people who acknowledge your point will sometimes still want to argue it, to provide a devil's advocate argument or perhaps to make their own stance on such things known.
As for #notallmen, that came out after Elliot Rodger killed many people in Isla Vista, since #yesallmen was a hashtag that a subset of social media feminists used to say all men are responsible for his actions, et cetera. Another unimpressive MRA shit.
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@deadculture said in RL Anger:
As for #notallmen, that came out after Elliot Rodger killed many people in Isla Vista, since #yesallmen was a hashtag that a subset of social media feminists used to say all men are responsible for his actions, et cetera.
That is incorrect for both of those hashtags.
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@deadculture said in RL Anger:
As for #notallmen, that came out after Elliot Rodger killed many people in Isla Vista, since #yesallmen was a hashtag that a subset of social media feminists used to say all men are responsible for his actions, et cetera.
That is incorrect for both of those hashtags.
Really? Hm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings - May 23th, 2014
EDIT: I see what happened. I thought of #yesallwomen, but #yesallmen is just the response to it anyway, and related to the former.
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I just don't have the energy for the topic. I'm so freaking angry and frustrated at the way people are behaving that it makes me question even continuing to participate in this corner of the community.
I feel dismissed.
I feel marginalized.
Up until now, I would have maintained that while the hobby certainly has its issues, it's managed to avoid the worst of it and be something of a safe space, in general, to just be female. Presently, given the behavior of people that I otherwise respected, that I thought were understanding...yeah, no.
Way to turn a conversation about people being abused into something about why men feel bad when women talk about harassment/discrimination.So sorry that the fact that I was assaulted hurts somebody's feelings, or something.
I feel the same. I've seriously considered stopping work on my game, and removing the soapbox from my bookmarks over all of this.
Hello! Long time listener, first time caller...
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@deadculture said in RL Anger:
@deadculture said in RL Anger:
As for #notallmen, that came out after Elliot Rodger killed many people in Isla Vista, since #yesallmen was a hashtag that a subset of social media feminists used to say all men are responsible for his actions, et cetera.
That is incorrect for both of those hashtags.
Really? Hm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings - May 23th, 2014
I'm confused. Those don't support what you were saying? #NotAllMen existed for years before the shooting, but had a resurgence in popularity because of the cultural reaction to people trying to talk about the depth of misogyny in the shooter's attacks. Which was followed by #YesAllWomen to talk about how all women have faced sexism and/or harassment, which was followed by #YesAllMen. You claimed that women started #YesAllMen to blame all men for the shooting, yet the page you just linked says the tag is about what men can do to combat sexism and misogyny.
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@Roz Note my edit. I confused #yesallmen with #yesallwomen.
And I should have also added this:
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I feel the same. I've seriously considered stopping work on my game, and removing the soapbox from my bookmarks over all of this.
I'm not going to not do my game or quit mushing or anything, but I'm definitely reconsidering my levels of general community involvement right now. Mostly, I guess it's all been really eye-opening as to how and why this shit happens.
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Man. This was depressing and horrifying. Doubly so after a shitty day.
But I guess the upside is, my lotion got here and new work shoes.
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I guess it's all been really eye-opening as to how and why this shit happens.
What's been really eye opening for me is the fact that we seem to not be disagreeing on the subject itself, but we're disagreeing about the language used in it.
Broad, sweeping generalizations are touchy things in this topic. Language could be used in a better way to get more people on the side of those affected. And some of those affected are actually defending the broad, sweeping generalizations used instead of just going 'you know what, my bad, you are right -- we should really talk about this as it really is'.
Like... why is so hard to not paint everyone with one brush? Or to recognize that if you want to get people on the side of those affected, you shouldn't use language that puts them in the category of people who you're painting as vile offenders of common decency?
All we have to do is shift language, and then we're mostly on the same page. But we're bickering about whether the shift in language is even the right call. It seems silly.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@Thenomain said in RL Anger:
It does answer my specific question, tho, about the conditions that Not All Men is a problem, so I won't complain. Well, not about that. I appreciate the candor.
To be clear... I wasn't taking issue with anything in particular you said, but just trying to answer your question about why it can be a problem.
Which is what I was asking for. Albeit, I didn't explicitly add the secondary that it must pass whatever reasonableness filter I as a human being am wearing, but I try to assure that reasonableness filter is reasonable.
Really, so far the best answer was given to me in PM: The wikipedia article on "Not All Men". That's a thing? That is fucking horrible. No, I'm not talking about that. I was never talking about that. That's disgusting. I was, as Faraday continues, talking about this:
And in response to some of the other sundry comments from the gallery, I will just add...
If someone says "All X do Y" and the response is "No, not all X do Y, stop making sweeping generalizations" then I think that's a totally appropriate way to re-frame the conversation.
If I tripped into a trope I didn't know about, I understand the outright disbelief and hostility (tho I still think being hostile about it does more harm than good), and shame on these trolls for confusing a legitimate remark with something that's bullshit.
But I mean, of course. They're trolls. They succeeded to get someone they never even interacted with to blow up at someone else they never even interacted with. They controlled my conversation. Bravo, fuckers. Bra-vo.
Lithium, I apologize for participating in this hellish farce of communications that we had.
Edit for Double Post Avoidance:
What's been really eye opening for me is the fact that we seem to not be disagreeing on the subject itself, but we're disagreeing about the language used in it.
I don't know if "we" can be said, here, as "we" is largely Lithium and I doing what has amounted to talking at cross purposes. Really, with entirely different understanding and expectations of what was being said.
Thanks to Faraday and my Anonymous Benefactor, I get it now. I don't know who else (except Tyche who, let's be honest, is being pretty Tyche by picking at the lynchpin) is participating that "the community" is something that needs abandoning.
All we have to do is shift language, and then we're mostly on the same page. But we're bickering about whether the shift in language is even the right call. It seems silly.
I'm not. Hell, now that I know what the rest of the language is, I no longer see an argument. I still have my peeve, but it doesn't seem conflicting to anything else said.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
I haven't said a lot since we got onto this because... it's tiring. It's exhausting, having essentially the same conversation repeatedly, and I don't have a lot of energy to spare to begin with. This is one of the reasons that people link things rather than write another post: we have already had this conversation, you just weren't there at the time. We've had it a hundred times, with a thousand other people coming from your basic point of view.
Some of the identities I have/am read to have are privileged. Others are marginalized. This is probably true of most of us, though the balance is obviously going to vary. So I want to make clear that when I talk about things members of privileged classes are prone to, this means me too -- I've been made aware of them, and I work at changing or avoiding them, but being marginalized in other ways hasn't magically made me immune where I'm not. It may make it easier to see once it's pointed out, I don't know.
Anyway. People in a privileged position tend to enter these conversations with the mindset that the marginalized people should convince us. They should lay out their case calmly and rationally to be judged by our objective, unbiased view. They WANT something, therefore they should meet our demands if they hope to get it. Do we think it in those terms? No, probably almost never. But that's what our society has always taught us, and what our actions and arguments often betray, nonetheless.
When we focus on tone in one of these discussions, that's what we're doing: we're putting the marginalized people in the position of children (don't take that tone with me, young lady!) or other subordinates who owe us respect and 'civil' address if they hope to convince us -- and surely they should want to; our opinion on their lives and experiences should be valued! People in privileged groups are generally, whether they realize it or not, used to having their opinion be the one that matters most. We're used to seeing ourselves as objective, free from bias, logical, rational. But we're not. Humans just aren't. We try! Many of us do our damnedest. But we don't and can't fully succeed. The difference is that when we're coming from the privileged position, society tells us our view is clear and correct. And we tend to believe it.
When we ask to have things explained to us, of course we usually mean well. We want to understand; we don't want bad things to happen to other people; we want to fix things. We've just come into this conversation, and often we feel attacked or rejected when marginalized people don't engage with us the way we want, expect, and on some level, feel that we deserve.
The thing is, the people in the other half of the conversation haven't just entered it. They live it, and if they're talking about it, they've probably already explained it 5, 10, 20, 100 times. Like I said, people get tired. People have other things they need to do with their lives and time rather than spend an hour writing -- again -- a personalized (and polite! Never forget polite, carefully worded, and appreciative that this privileged person is willing to listen!) answer to the same question. So often a link is given to somewhere it's already been answered, or the person professing a desire to be an ally is told to research it. And this is often taken as a dismissal or rejection, because we tend to believe that we deserve that answer, we deserve their time and attention, or at least we certainly do if they want us to care about their problem(s).
We don't deserve it, not really. And we should care regardless. Even when we feel to our toes that the treatment we're getting isn't FAIR. Once in a while we're even right. But I have never seen it be less fair than the issue that's actually being discussed. It's not easy trying to learn how to listen to and engage with these discussions without derailing, or how to let go of the reflex to focus on how the discussion appears to relate to us personally. It's just important.
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@Thenomain I am sorry too. I am not perfect, I can get frustrated, and part of why it was so painful and frustrating is because most of the time I value your opinion very much. It hurt, and I couldn't remain calm anymore given the subject matter.
I'm tired.
I'm frustrated.
I've already been attacked physically and socially and mentally over this...
And people wonder why 'we' don't speak up and talk to people. Even those we trust sometimes.
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@Ninjakitten said it.
Thank you.
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re: @Ninjakitten
Whoop, der it is.
