RL Anger

Auspice

@Auspice -- Wait, am I not supposed to sigh melodramatically and mutter "fucking white people" under my breath when white people do something that is collectively stupid? Cause we do stupid shit. Like, a lot.

Oh, that's fine.
But there's your operative word: 'we.'
This dude exempts himself.

surreality

@Ghost Yeah, our parents' generation is horrifyingly racist sometimes, but at a certain point -- and your friend is definitely there -- at which there really is no reason to belabor this other than to make someone feel really horrible about their life before it's over, 'cause it's not like she's interacting with anyone else, from the sound of things, to be a danger out there doing any form of harm to people because of it.

My mother will insist on endless chronicles of the lives of the saints when it comes to that time; that would be destined to be such a hell on earth that I might eventually be able to claim actual martyrdom. My father would pick his (huge) collection of 40s pulp novels, which are probably also full of shit racist enough to make me choke on the regular, and it will amuse him greatly.

Ghost

Not to digress from my earlier points, but my guy (I unfriended now) is the dude with this basic outlook:

"White people come from a position of privilege in our society, and black people have no voice, so it's my responsibility to advocate for and speak on behalf of black people for their lack of voice. We should love one another...which mostly involves shaming you."

Wait. Confused. Did you just say your privilege is a bad thing or good thing?

Aria

@Auspice -- Well, to be fair, I generally try not to do a lot of the stupid shit that white people do. But the operative word here is, again, try. Part of privilege is blissful ignorance to itself.

Ghost

@Aria If white people giving acoustic black metal concerts in school classrooms is wrong...

...then I dont wanna be right.

Aria

@Ghost

siiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

Fucking white people.

Ghost

@Aria You can fuck all the white people you want.

I only like girls who are black...

...metal

surreality

@Ghost ...but the WASPiest suburban Catholic church choir ever should never again attempt 'Go Tell It on the Mountain'. Never.

Never, ever, ever.

Like shit you can't unsee, there is also shit you can't unhear. Often, in your nightmares.

Ghost

@surreality Oh man, my Catholic upbringing and that music...all that sad, guilt-ridden, I'M SORRY OKAY PLEASE DON'T SMITE ME music.

I think Eddie Izzard set it best that the Catholic church doesnt make a hallelujah sound like an actual hallelujah.

surreality

@Ghost My mother is in that choir. Every Xmas, her 'gift' was 'I sing with her in the choir'. Despite being so Not Remotely Catholic. This is the one upside to fucking up my throat a few years ago, because after that year, I... <eyetic>

You know it's bad when the rehearsal host cheerfully chirps, "There's wine and cheese and clementines for after rehearsal!" and the choir director quietly tilts down his head and mumbles, "Can I have the wine now? We should really all have the wine now. Maybe it will help," into the sheet music.

Their typical style is... very Pirates of Penzance. So just imagine the Modern Major General sharply and crisply and operatically going for the 'when I was a sinner' solo, and... shit, just remembering that makes me wish there was wine in the house now.

Misadventure

@surreality said in RL Anger:
... makes me wish there was wine in the house now.

There IS wine in the house, until its made into blood.

Drink early and often.

surreality

@Misadventure That's their house! ...mine is wineless. Which, bringing things back to the general topic of the thread, I am now officially somewhat angry about.

Auspice

@surreality said in RL Anger:

@Misadventure That's their house! ...mine is wineless. Which, bringing things back to the general topic of the thread, I am now officially somewhat angry about.

My roommate works at Trader Joe's.
She did a tasting the other day and in telling me about it, followed up with: '...I had to pour four bottles of wine out at the end of the day.'

...oh the look of despair I gave her. HOW DARE SHE NOT BRING IT HOME TO ME?!

I miss when she was wine manager. She'd often bring home wine to taste/try and if she didn't like it personally, she'd hand off the rest of the bottle to me (and as she's not a big fan of cabs, whereas I am.......)

Ghost

@Auspice Does this qualify as wineing?

Auspice

@Ghost said in RL Anger:

@Auspice Does this qualify as wineing?

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Ganymede

@surreality said in RL Anger:

Sounds like elder abuse to me.

I'm pretty sure someone's going to prison for encouraging someone to kill themselves.

I sincerely hate it when academics try to discuss these subjects in a mixed audience of fellow academics and those who are not. There are certain bits of phrasing -- like the 'all white people are racist' one -- that are conversational shorthand to the people who study the same subject, and the theory is actually entirely reasonable and it isn't even hard to understand.

I hate it when academics shade agency by blaming the herd. Yes, privilege is a bad thing, but let's not overlook how these acts are committed by people that knew, or should have known, exactly what they were doing.

Yes, white privilege probably assisted an orange into the Oval Office, but let's not forget that a bunch of old rich fucking people supported him and every other dullard that got into office.

Ghost

@Ganymede said in RL Anger:

I hate it when academics shade agency by blaming the herd

Agreed.

It's a logical fallacy to suggest that it is wrong for herds to be judged with having presumed traits simply for being a part of that herd, but then acceptable to judge another herd with having presumed traits simply for applying to the demographics of that herd.

If it's wrong, it's wrong.

surreality

@Ghost Actually, that's sort of the irony of the argument.

When phrased that way, it very much suggests every white person acts with intentional and abusive racial prejudice.

It is actually intended to refer to the argument that all white people benefit from white privilege, and white privilege came about because of centuries of institutionalized racism, regardless of how fortunate or unfortunate in any other way that white person is, and regardless of how they feel about or treat someone of a different racial origin.

It's not actually hard to explain as a concept, and it's not even terribly controversial these days.

Instead of saying 'all white people are racist', say: 'a long history of racism over a period of generations, through which they were the only people with certain rights, white people gained a number of social and financial benefits that people of color do not have by default as whites do' and, imagine that, suddenly people are curious about what and how (whether they agree or not at the outset) and are going to be a lot more willing to engage in discussion of the subject than they would be if they think you're saying that the reason they have to cut your coffee date short is because they just can't miss the start of the Klan meeting.

It's a pretty easy topic to have a sane discussion about, and yet a lot of the people who have gone out of their way to learn about it do use the academic shorthand, and in the process, completely lose sight of the fact that the shorthand comes across as a personal attack to people who were not sitting there in class with them to know what it's shorthand for.

You don't often successfully get people to listen to you about anything by alienating them as your opener. In other words, sometimes academia makes people impressively stupid with the more someone learns.

Aria

@surreality It's actually kind of amazing how many people I've converted by literally looking them dead in the eye and explaining, like...

"Dude. 'Privilege' does not mean you haven't worked hard. It doesn't mean that you somehow don't deserve the things you have. Literally all it means is that because of some random demographic you were fortunate enough to be born with, you are unlikely to have ever experienced this particular shitty thing and are therefore more likely to underestimate how much of a problem it is. That's it. That's literally it. If someone is suggesting you examine your privilege on a subject, all that means is 'you should maybe consider how much harder someone who doesn't have said random demographic trait would have to work to get to where you are now before you dismiss the thing that they're saying sucks' rather than opening your mouth and saying something stupid about it."

I said that to my friend Justin once and it was like the sky opened up and baby Jesus smacked him on the forehead and went, "Listen up, bitch!" in a sassy voice or something.

Tinuviel

@Aria There really needs to be a more specific word for that kind of privilege. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, of course, but to the uninitiated privilege is something for rich people that get handed everything and literally do not have to work for it. So to hear that they have some kind of privilege is most definitely insulting.

Sure, they are getting handed something that means they don't need to work to the same level as people without it, but it's an intangible thing and people are really hard at grasping intangible concepts.