RL Anger
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What the actual fuck. Pizza delivery-rage.
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One of the things that bugs me about "they are not us" is that it goes both ways. If they, whomever "they" are, cannot accept that we are not them then I have a reduced sympathy. Nobody should get in trouble for that situation, and yeah that kind of overriding hospitality mentality happens here and there in the US, too.
Yes, this is why it's called a culture clash, and no, this does not excuse the West for being aloof to the differences either. But I should no more be punished for enjoying Fallout 4 than ... Well, fill in your favorite analogy here.
That said, I don't think killing innocent people is a culture that we should accept, no matter the differences. Even if that culture is our own.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
There is no justification for targeting innocent people under any circumstances. I think we can all agree on that.
What is often a point of contention is whether implicit guilt is factored. While I find the practice despicable in the face of civilians and children being put in bodybags, there is still a point in that the political and business interests in the West have been profiting off the selective destabilization of nations in the Middle East for the last several decades so in this global village of ours eventually the upheaval spread in our collective back yards.
We are at least partially morally responsible for part of this ugliness in many ways. I was among those who enabled that silly Facebook French overlay to honor (as if I'm honoring anything that way) the terrorist attack's victims but where was the outrage when a plane carrying 224 people was brought down by ISIS only a few days ago? Or when we catch the news on TV where someone suicide-bombed the shit out of entire crowds of non-combatants - a quick search yielded 134 people dying in just one of them?
I'm not saying we shouldn't feel empathic for the latest victims and the pain their families are going through. We damn well should. But how do we justify not being as outraged about those other people's families?
Just because it's not happening in 'western' countries or these people have a different skin color and/or names it doesn't mean they're not dying. Back home in Greece I read daily about the efforts of freakin' fishermen in their little boats struggling to help refugees - mostly Sirians - being herded out of Turkey through the most inhumane means possible. You know that famous photo of the dead child who drowned and was washed up on a beach? They are burying children constantly out of the waters since when the trafficking networks' shitty boats have any issue at all they dump everyone, and of course it's kids who can't swim as well as adults. Last weekend I was outraged to read the story of this trafficker (who was paid basically all these desperate people had to carry them across Turkey's borders to Greece) who was spotted by the navy and pushed everyone into the sea trying to avoid capture. He was arrested, and I can't think of a punishment good enough for him, but not before most of his passengers drowned.
This is happening. Hundreds of thousands of people are in - past - the brink of despair. They're just trying to survive, and now they are being blamed by some because the very maniacs they are fleeing from are killing civilians in the nations they're trying to reach. It's crazy, and heart breaking.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@BigDaddyAmin said:
As someone who has been to Arab countries, lived amongst Arabs, speaking their language, eating their food, and observed their culture, I have come to realize it is an ademocratic culture. They respect authority. They honor strength. They are tribal. Individual rights generally aren't respected. This is why Bashar al-Assad is, despite what Western media portrays, is overwhelmingly popular in Syria. This is why his dad's face painted on the side of vehicles and his portrait is framed in living rooms. Hafez drug Syria into the 20th Century kicking and screaming, and whoever was in his way got fucked up.
This isn't a bad thing. It makes them different. It is kind of like expecting Klingons to be feminist Green Party anarcho collectivists. It isn't going to happen.
World War II ended 70 years ago. There are people alive today who actually remember a time when Europe was composing odes to the virtues of strong, genocidal, warmongering leaders. That tiny bit of historical perspective always makes me wary of radical pronouncements about the essential traits of particular cultures.
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@peasoupling said:
World War II ended 70 years ago. There are people alive today who actually remember a time when Europe was composing odes to the virtues of strong, genocidal, warmongering leaders. That tiny bit of historical perspective always makes me wary of radical pronouncements about the essential traits of particular cultures.
We should be wary, but not blind, even if it's with good intentions. Like I said, people would prefer certain things to not be true. It feels terrible to be unkind in our judgment towards others. I don't want to be unkind, but as someone who's also had the opportunity to live for 3 years in an Arabic country, I have to reiterate: their culture and values are alien to us.
It feels stupid to be the one writing this. I remember how pissed off I was with some soldier on a mush who was ranting about being deployed among "goat fuckers" and saying all sorts of crude, disparaging remarks. It was disgusting. It's not like he was there to help them build roads, infrastructure, hospitals, schools. What right does he have to disparage them, when he's investing himself personally in bombing them back into the Stone age? He didn't have to be there, he chose to.
On the other hand, we trace my family's ancestors back to the Ottoman invasions in Europe. They were given a choice: convert or die. They killed, and fled northward. I was on an 8-hour ride through Bosnia this summer, after many years. I was surprised how many new mosques have popped up throughout the landscape. Many more than there used to be, all new and shiny.
Living in an Arabic country, even as a child, I saw all kinds of people. The children by the settlement for foreigners seemed alien. We looked at each other through the wire fence. They were barefoot, dirty, with snot-encrusted noses. The thing is, I got along with the French, the Polish, the Russians, the Bulgarians, the Vietnamese; but when I looked at the Arab kids, it was as if there was no common ground in that shared stare. However, our family was also hosted in an actual castle for dinner, beautifully furnished with a piano, so I also got to see that side. At the university, women were being sent threatening letters: if they don't cover themselves up, they'll get acid thrown in their faces, then they'll have a reason to. A girl stopped showing up at our school for foreigners, we didn't know why until we met her by chance in the street. Her father was an Arab in a mixed marriage, so he had her transferred to an Arabic school. Even though her future would've been much better in the foreign one. I had no idea of the significance of this back then, I only understood it many years later. Lastly, just a couple of years after we left, we heard on the news that extremists killed several foreign workers. This would happen again and again over the years.
Then you have the mess in Europe. It's a clash of cultures with wholly incompatible values. This is not an easy subject to get into. The nicest way I can think of to describe it is "alien," while staying true to what I know. I think it's more important to be truthful, than to be kind in a way that will pleasantly mask the truth.
You're implying Germany in WW2, which is also a touchy subject but it illustrates one point. There were many people in Germany who worked against the Nazi regime, the country paid reparations after the war and has made considerable efforts to atone for those crimes. Nazi ideology and insignia is forbidden by law in Germany. You can get arrested for it, there is no "free speech" amendment when it comes to that. But when Islamic extremists commit atrocities, why aren't there Muslims renouncing Islam in droves? Apologists swarm out of the woodwork with assurances that Islam is not the radical religion of the extremists. Like the cruelest of cults, leaving Islam is punishable by death.
When the Christian church is discovered in yet another scandal, people renounce it and criticize it freely. I've renounced Christianity at some point, so it's not like I'd be expecting them to do something I wasn't willing to do myself. Even if only a few bad apples are pedophiles or corrupt, enough is wrong with it for me to leave the whole mess altogether.
We should be wary of jumping to prejudice, and we should try to keep perspective. At the same time, we should not be blind to an unpleasant reality.
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No. They aren't us. Which is why it would be best if we left them to their own devices, stop meddling in their politics, and go back to eating pork, drinking beer, and playing Fallout IV.
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@peasoupling said:
I like Star Trek. There's this little thing called the "Prime Directive." The Prime Directive is essentially the Federation's founding principle. For those of you all who aren't Trekkies, the Prime Directive prohibits Starfleet personnel and Federation citizens from interfering with the religious, cultural, political, technological, and economical aspects of developing civilizations. I think we might need to start doing this in the West. After all, in my opinion, places like Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc. are well...developing.
Europe has gone through her development. Maybe it is time to let other nations do the same. If Syria wants to "elect" Assad....um....
so?
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Since the is MUSoapbox i have to make this snarky comment,
You do realize that in the shows they violate this prime directive all the freaking time? Including many times when in dialogue they even admit they are doing it?
No real comment on the actual issue. -
I'm sorry, this is a very long post, and I don't really feel like I can address all the points in it one by one. If I were you I'd reread the bit you wrote about feeling distant from snotty-nosed barefoot kids while complimenting the family with a castle and a piano. That does say something, but I don't think it's about the kids or the Arab world.
I will say that comparing Nazism and Islam the way you do in the latter paragraphs doesn't really seem to make much sense. Nazism is a pretty specific political ideology. Islam is a very diverse religion and, in fact, plenty of Muslims do denounce the kinds of Islam that support and justify terror attacks. It is possible to renounce radical and extremist varieties of Islam without renouncing other forms of Islam, or Islam as a whole, and many Muslims do so. It's kind of sucky to ignore the ones who have been persecuted and killed by extremists for being moderates and secular activists, while still considering themselves Muslims.
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@peasoupling said:
I'm sorry, this is a very long post, and I don't really feel like I can address all the points in it one by one. If I were you I'd reread the bit you wrote about feeling distant from snotty-nosed barefoot kids while complimenting the family with a castle and a piano. That does say something, but I don't think it's about the kids or the Arab world.
If that's what you took from that paragraph, you've completely missed the point. I tried to present many angles of my experiences to show that I don't see their world from only one perspective or prejudice. Instead you make it about me looking down on poverty. Wow. That's low.
That's why it was a long post, to show those many perspectives. I see that the effort was wasted.
This just shows how badly incapable you are at looking outside of the bubble of your preconceived notions. You would rather misinterpret someone's good intentions and honesty to the point of insult, than face an unpleasant reality. I lived there, you didn't. Go, live there. Tell me if you change your mind.
I will say that comparing Nazism and Islam the way you do in the latter paragraphs doesn't really seem to make much sense. Nazism is a pretty specific political ideology. Islam is a very diverse religion and, in fact, plenty of Muslims do denounce the kinds of Islam that support and justify terror attacks. It is possible to renounce radical and extremist varieties of Islam without renouncing other forms of Islam, or Islam as a whole, and many Muslims do so. It's kind of sucky to ignore the ones who have been persecuted and killed by extremists for being moderates and secular activists, while still considering themselves Muslims.
It's also possible to renounce radical forms of Christianity, or ignore the bad aspects of the religion, while still considering yourself Christian. Yet many people choose to renounce the religion entirely, and are able to without reprisal.
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@Arkandel said:
... but where was the outrage when a plane carrying 224 people was brought down by ISIS only a few days ago? Or when we catch the news on TV where someone suicide-bombed the shit out of entire crowds of non-combatants - a quick search yielded 134 people dying in just one of them?
Sorry, if it isn't on Facebook, MSNBC or Fox News, half of America won't see it. The following of journalistic news outlets has dropped significantly in the wake of the deregulation of news in the US (research Telecommunications Act of 96), allowing for commercially-driven interests to put up their own news outlets. This differs greatly in the news of old, where Congressional mandate dictated that each network provide one free hour of news reporting to the American populace. Now, viewership matters, so 'news' comprises of talking heads, arguments, inflammatory accusations and political bickering to draw eyes. If it won't draw views, it doesn't matter.
This extends into the separation of political views (perhaps this is just me getting older and 'wiser' to the political scene). Popular media is much more pervasive, much more 24/7 than the newspaper and 1-2 hours a night of fact-based journalism that the country had back before the 70s. Popular media ranges from blogs to faux news sites heavily slanted to this agenda or that (lots seemingly put in place SPECIFICALLY to drive social media commentary), all the way to the 'real' news sites having clearly delineated political viewpoints and agendas.
They are all guilty of getting us where this country is today. It is a ripple effect that continues to spread outward, and the ripples are getting stronger, not weaker.
If the average American understood the difference between 'Muslim' and 'radical Muslim', the commentary and conversation in this country would be different. But, agendas have colored understanding of those who spend ten minutes of their day educating themselves to the issues we are faced with, who take the lazy way out by adopting some loudmouthed 'news source' and their take on the matter.
We all have our opinions and standpoints. But, in the large, we have gotten to those standpoints by being heavily influenced by people with agendas. So, when asked why I despise 'conversations' about politics, this is the answer that is given, and I am looked at like I'm some cane-waving recluse shouting about how things were different in the 20s. I am sick of watching Democratic people and Republican people do nothing but hurl insults and untruths about each other's ideas. I am sick of listening to people (not just politicians, but voters too) being lumped into these huge buckets of stereotype, when we all know that we know people who don't subscribe to either viewpoint, diverge from their professed party's stand on various issues. We do it to each other. A populace is /never/ reduced to two opinions on any complex matter, so why are we painting each other with 'red' and 'blue' brushes that are negative no matter which party you subscribe to?
Sorry for the rant.
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@Rook said:
Sorry, if it isn't on Facebook, MSNBC or Fox News, half of America won't see it.
Agreed, but where's the other half?
The western world isn't living under an oppressive regime where the dissemination of information is watched over by draconic overlords; we're given fat pipes to the internet and dozens of web sites where such news are readily available.
See, I cannot in good conscience accept that all those Facebook users - I'm one of them - sharing links all day every day are getting their news feeds from television. I don't think that's the case. We're not our parents, the generations who've grown into adulthood after the nineties are getting their news from a multitude of online sources. Everything else gets sourced from the internet, commented and analyzed or broken down and made into memes. What we're interested in and are informed by isn't limited by what's allowed to be filtered through in the hallowed halls of TV newsrooms any more.
No, if we were in the least bit interested in the misery of people who live far from us and don't look like us we would know all about such things. Instead we don't, until someone brings their bloody feuds to our doorstep. Then we do care.
It's a pessimistic view of human nature but I think accurate enough.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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Maybe 'half' was too generalized, and I didn't put much thought into the percentage implied there. Research would establish a more realistic number, I am sure, but I don't have the sources in front of me just now.
So what you're saying is that we boil everything into a snippet and then bandy that snippet around as standpoint and understanding? That, in itself is a generalization (har har) but I want to ensure I understand what you are saying there. I agree with it. I, too, hate that we are so 'modern' that we cannot have meaningful commentary about this or that, we just throw out the proverbial one-liners and move on with our day.
There are theories about the 'tribal size' that the average human can accept and genuinely care for. With the issues going on right here at home, most people only care that these global issues are not cropping up here in our country. They don't care that the US's meddling in the Middle East at the behest of corporations with interests has helped create the situation. They don't care that there are such things as 'innocent and godly Muslims' that are not radicalized. They don't care that there is anything going on anywhere until it is thrown 'in their face' by their favorite brain-sink of choice.
Back to the original statement about 'why isnt X being talked about' -- there are tons of events that have happened alongside, soon before/after other like events that never got any attention. It has been that way for a while, and it is skewing our conversations, greatly. Those that see, and comment, are put down by the other political group as trying to 'grand stand, blow up, capitalize' on something, as the popular commentary of the country moves on to the next pop star's breakup or TV show's finale.
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@Arkandel said:
@Rook said:
Sorry, if it isn't on Facebook, MSNBC or Fox News, half of America won't see it.
Agreed, but where's the other half?
Yeah, that's the thing. We live in a time where there's more information available than ever. And you don't even have to try terribly hard and follow non-Westernized sources, you can just keep up with the BBC or Reuters or something. Most people just don't. Which is another kind of problem. Not that I don't think the death of on-the-ground reporting and media consolidation are problems (my first attempt at a career was as a daily newspaper reporter, and I fled the industry because of the dying of it). They're huge problems, but consumers are both victims of them and complicit in perpetuating them, because all the excuses for not trying a little bit to look at the wider world occasionally are mostly gone now.
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@Rook said:
Maybe 'half' was too generalized, and I didn't put much thought into the percentage implied there. Research would establish a more realistic number, I am sure, but I don't have the sources in front of me just now.
So what you're saying is that we boil everything into a snippet and then bandy that snippet around as standpoint and understanding? That, in itself is a generalization (har har) but I want to ensure I understand what you are saying there. I agree with it. I, too, hate that we are so 'modern' that we cannot have meaningful commentary about this or that, we just throw out the proverbial one-liners and move on with our day.
I guess I'm trying to make two arguments here.
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That for the somewhat younger generations TV's newscasting can no longer be the scapegoat it once was. Sure its credibility has taken a nosedive as the major news outlets serve commercial interests in a more blatant fashion than they used to but we have and actually use sources online for so much more about just about everything.
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With the disclaimer that I don't want in any way to cheapen tragedies taking place near us since when innocent people are killed to make a point it's just as bad no matter where it is, we seem to give a whole less of a shit about them when they're happening somewhere in Asia. Or Israel/Pakistan. Or the Middle East. "That's how things are over there" seems to sum it up. I mean look at this list! Just to single out one incident from there (but holy crap, look at that list) -- "six to ten gunmen associated with the Islamic terrorist group Al-Shabaab open fired at the Garissa University in Kenya. Christians were their main target of the attack, with the Islamic extremists separating the Muslims from Christians before executing them. Up to three hundred students are unaccounted for. One hundred and forty-seven students were reported killed, with fears the toll will rise, along with seventy-nine wounded."
Can you imagine the shitstorm if any of these things had happened in a western country? Just think if 6-10 people had invaded a University, separated one religious group from another then executed hundreds from the one they disagreed with in Germany or Canada. Yet I remember seeing that on yahoo at the time, it was up there... for a day. It's not like anyone hid it from us.
We just didn't give a shit so the media moved on.
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@sundown Get defensive, that will make your point. Demonstrating the very thing you are complaining about is a great teaching tool.
Or you could correct and expand, or just move on.
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@Sundown said:
@peasoupling said:
I'm sorry, this is a very long post, and I don't really feel like I can address all the points in it one by one. If I were you I'd reread the bit you wrote about feeling distant from snotty-nosed barefoot kids while complimenting the family with a castle and a piano. That does say something, but I don't think it's about the kids or the Arab world.
If that's what you took from that paragraph, you've completely missed the point. I tried to present many angles of my experiences to show that I don't see their world from only one perspective or prejudice. Instead you make it about me looking down on poverty. Wow. That's low.
That's why it was a long post, to show those many perspectives. I see that the effort was wasted.
This just shows how badly incapable you are at looking outside of the bubble of your preconceived notions. You would rather misinterpret someone's good intentions and honesty to the point of insult, than face an unpleasant reality. I lived there, you didn't. Go, live there. Tell me if you change your mind.
I am sorry. We're all a bit classist and ethnocentric and, while snarkier than it could have been, it's not really meant as an insult. Much like saying someone is racist isn't really an insult, 90+% of the time it'll be a statement of fact. Look at how you actually chose to narrate your experiences. You did contrast the poor barefoot kids you could not relate to, with the beauty of a castle with a piano. That is how you chose to frame your experience. I think that's telling, in the context of the rest of your post.
I could be wrong. But that's why I try not to turn my limited personal experience into generalizations about entire cultures and their fundamental incompatibility with my own. Also, I know too many expats to take "I lived there, you didn't." without an enormous grain of salt. It can be an interesting point of view, but it's one point of view, and often a very insular one.
I will say that comparing Nazism and Islam the way you do in the latter paragraphs doesn't really seem to make much sense. Nazism is a pretty specific political ideology. Islam is a very diverse religion and, in fact, plenty of Muslims do denounce the kinds of Islam that support and justify terror attacks. It is possible to renounce radical and extremist varieties of Islam without renouncing other forms of Islam, or Islam as a whole, and many Muslims do so. It's kind of sucky to ignore the ones who have been persecuted and killed by extremists for being moderates and secular activists, while still considering themselves Muslims.
It's also possible to renounce radical forms of Christianity, or ignore the bad aspects of the religion, while still considering yourself Christian. Yet many people choose to renounce the religion entirely, and are able to without reprisal.
Many Muslims choose to renounce the religion entirely too, without reprisal. Of course, these usually live outside theocracies or extremist communities. Theocracies are awful, and fundamentalism is awful, and Islam has very serious and troubling issues with those.
But look at your original post. You brought that up to contrast the response of Germans to Nazism (resistance during Nazism, and outright condemnation afterwards) with the response of Muslims to acts of terror by other Muslims. It's in that context that your comparison makes no sense. I brought up European totalitarianism simply because the West tends to ignore its own recent checkered past, and its own role in the world, when making pronouncements about other cultures and their supposed character.
It's like when people calling themselves realists shrug and say, super seriously: "You have to understand that whole region has always been at war, something something tribal culture something something." which I guess is different from Europe's millennia of peace and brotherhood.
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@BigDaddyAmin said:
No. They aren't us. Which is why it would be best if we left them to their own devices, stop meddling in their politics, and go back to eating pork, drinking beer, and playing Fallout IV.
Ah, you're talking about Nation Building. Then yes, absolutely.
Man, I hate Piper.
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My view on the situation is I don't care about religion I don't care about culture someone hits you you hit them back, preferably harder if you are able to.
In this case France was hit, now they are hitting back, still not sure why we have a dog in the fight beside providing logistical support for our fellow NATO member, which we are doing.
I am all for understanding others and respecting their rights to live how they want to but that understand end immediate when they make the call to blow things up, then it becomes not a matter of who is right but who will be left.
And lets face a basic human fact of existence people from Europe and people from Southwest Asia a.k.a. then Middle East, will clash violently and repeatedly. It is one of the main recurring themes of history going back ot the Greeks and Persia, or to most modern folks, the 300 movie war. -
@peasoupling said:
Many Muslims choose to renounce the religion entirely too, without reprisal. Of course, these usually live outside theocracies or extremist communities. Theocracies are awful, and fundamentalism is awful, and Islam has very serious and troubling issues with those.
Yes, and it's theocracies (or any other type of extreme regime which focuses on its own values to suppress individual expression) which are the problem, not the religion in question. There have been points in time when not being a Christian - or, hell, just a different flavor of one - could absolutely get you killed and/or tortured.
Religion has been used as a vehicle to power before and its exact contents are preeeetty much irrelevant. Christianity claims awful lot of "love your neighbor" and "turn the other cheek" mandates yet large scale atrocities have been committed in its name. To those who just want to blow shit up and burn shit down any ol' holy book will do as a banner.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
