Previously Mutants & Masterminds MUX, now a Question! DUN DUN DUN!
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Attention spans have shrunk. And not just with younger generations. I can agree that the waits for MU*ing is more than most young people want to deal with. Its barely anything I want to deal with. A lot of time you wait for someone else to pose and they crap out some rushed line because like the younger people their attention had been elsewhere and a 20 minute wait was spent with 19 minutes of it focused elsewhere and 1 minute to bang out a pose. Its a chore to get people to pay attention during a combat scene to what's going on. As though other people's turns have nothing to do with them. Then when their turn comes up they take 10 minutes to decide what to do as though they haven't had more than enough time to decide already.
Add in the drama and the negativity and all the other stuff we gripe about and can anyone really wonder about it? In fact I'm surprised there is as much activity as exists right now.
I would love for more people to be into the hobby, but I'd prefer if the few people who are into the hobby were of a higher quality. I think if we had the latter, we'd get more of the former.
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Video games also have seriously invested in creating communities, where you play with friends, or just watch your friends play, or watch strangers. Likewise, they create a continuity across a play space by allowing a player to have a known account name, regardless if any given game character. People can find each other (or avoid) with ease.
And yes, RPGs that try to do things that video games do faster and with more detail (combat, inventory, customization) will fall behind. Frankly most tabletop games took hours to play through combats as well, even with players who know what they are doing.
Video games let you try and retry all sorts of things. RP is a serial continuity with few do-overs, so the stakes can see very high.
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@Warma-Sheen said:
A lot of time you wait for someone else to pose and they crap out some rushed line because like the younger people their attention had been elsewhere and a 20 minute wait was spent with 19 minutes of it focused elsewhere and 1 minute to bang out a pose.
This bugs me so much. I honestly don't mind waiting because someone's got a RL emergency (or if they state in advance they're slow due to RL reasons). Fine. I don't mind waiting 15 minutes for a great pose, although my arbitrary threshold is around 10.
But waiting for more than that for a 2-liner is going to deplete my interest real fast because obviously you're distracted between three windows and five chats.
Yes, some people will claim their two sentences are better than "a paragraph's worth of flowery stuff" - well, different tastes and all. Give me more detail, facial expressions, set up the atmosphere and make the scene come alive with your pose and I will return the favor to the best of my ability. Don't... and well, more power to you, but we won't be playing much.
</elitistrant>
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
@Warma-Sheen said:
A lot of time you wait for someone else to pose and they crap out some rushed line because like the younger people their attention had been elsewhere and a 20 minute wait was spent with 19 minutes of it focused elsewhere and 1 minute to bang out a pose.
This bugs me so much. I honestly don't mind waiting because someone's got a RL emergency (or if they state in advance they're slow due to RL reasons). Fine. I don't mind waiting 15 minutes for a great pose, although my arbitrary threshold is around 10.
But waiting for more than that for a 2-liner is going to deplete my interest real fast because obviously you're distracted between three windows and five chats.
Yes, some people will claim their two sentences are better than "a paragraph's worth of flowery stuff" - well, different tastes and all. Give me more detail, facial expressions, set up the atmosphere and make the scene come alive with your pose and I will return the favor to the best of my ability. Don't... and well, more power to you, but we won't be playing much.
</elitistrant>
Sometimes I do spend those ten or fifteen minutes on those two sentences. Sometimes I sit there and wonder about the right adjective to use; is it a rictus or is it a moue? Is my character showing contempt or not? How do I inject immediacy into this scene as bruskly and sharply as possible? Often, it takes me longer to write something concise and poignant than it does to write something long and full of adjectives that I vaguely recall meaning the things I want them to mean within certain contexts that may or may not be the one I'm currently using them in.
TL;DR: Sometimes my writing is important to me, and when it's good, it takes me a while, even if it takes you half a second to read it.
</counter rant>
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin I still play with you, don't I? I'm in no way stating length equals quality, that'd be dumb. But there's a correlation there.
Let's put it this way - if someone writes a paragraph (or more) they've spent some time and paid some attention to it. It might not be great as that depends on the player's writing skills more than anything but at least I can reasonably say it wasn't put together in five seconds when they remembered that window.
Now, I realize some folks will be rubbed the wrong way by this - it's fine. I don't mean to be offensive by making gross generalizations like this, only to claim I value my free time quite a bit; when I MU* it's almost always in the evenings after I've taken care of everything else in the house that can't wait but before bedtime. So if I only have 2-3 hours to do fun things... well, it's not fun to wait twenty minutes for a crappy pose. It's not rewarding to read a hastily generic response after I do wait for that long.
Nor is this unique in gaming. If I'm on a WoW 5-man group and one of the characters is always staying behind, going AFK, etc they're not being good players. Obviously there are differences there (posing is turn-based and the pace is a lot slower) but paying attention to people you're playing with seems like a universally good rule of thumb.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel
Yes, but I was replying specifically to the bit where you mention "some people might say their two lines are better than..." and then stated you prefer the latter.Yes, some people will claim their two sentences are better than "a paragraph's worth of flowery stuff" - well, different tastes and all.
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@Coin said:
Sometimes I do spend those ten or fifteen minutes on those two sentences. Sometimes I sit there and wonder about the right adjective to use; is it a rictus or is it a moue? Is my character showing contempt or not? How do I inject immediacy into this scene as bruskly and sharply as possible?
Not to give my writing any undue credit, but this is the biggest problem I've had the few times I've tried coming back to RPing after a long hiatus. People are used to quick poses and I'm over here trying to create art, maaaaaan and I've really felt the pressure just to hurry the fuck up, and I haven't liked it at all. Where all the wordy bitches at?
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To me it is less about length and more about flow of the scene.
Some scenes are more visceral and for those I prefer short and quickly delivered poses to keep the emotional impact present.
Some scenes are more cerebral and artistic, in those i prefer longer poses and time really does not become a factor.
I like both types of scenes and both have a place but bad things can happen when folks are in once scene and each expecting a different type. -
I don't care about length, I care about adding to the scene and the story. This does not always require a huge pose, but it does require at least two things: A characters reaction to what just transpired, and their reaction to it (Or them instigating an action). It is a lot more difficult to do this with a short two line pose, at least in any way that meaningfully propels the story and gives the person (or people) you are RP'ing with anything to work with to further the story.
It's collaborative, if you do not collaborate, then you're simply taking up space and wasting people's time.
Note: This is not directed at anyone. I don't know who all I've RP'd with here really but I am sure I have, so not pointing fingers, just stating my opinion.
Hello! Long time listener, first time caller...
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@Lithium said:
I don't care about length, I care about adding to the scene and the story. This does not always require a huge pose, but it does require at least two things: A characters reaction to what just transpired, and their reaction to it (Or them instigating an action). It is a lot more difficult to do this with a short two line pose, at least in any way that meaningfully propels the story and gives the person (or people) you are RP'ing with anything to work with to further the story.
It's collaborative, if you do not collaborate, then you're simply taking up space and wasting people's time.
Note: This is not directed at anyone. I don't know who all I've RP'd with here really but I am sure I have, so not pointing fingers, just stating my opinion.
I don't really see this being very difficult to do in two lines. Writers do it all the time. They can even do it in one line. It's just that we're conditioned to expect more from our fellow roleplayers; we're used to everyone writing as if they were the protagonist. Sometimes I don't write characters from their point of view and instead write them as divorced from themselves as possible. I give a reaction, then an action, and that's it.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin As do I.
At the risk of repeating myself though, the point here isn't that it's possible to do as much with less, but that while it's far from uncommon to see smaller poses rather obviously come in the name of convenience, with less effort or focus put into them.
I can't expect brilliance from all my fellow roleplayers, that'd be unrealistic and unfair. Just that - well, spend a little time on this thing, don't be doing six things at once out of which one is the scene I'm putting my own time into. So even though not all long poses are excellent - that's fine - at the very least they often show the other player tried.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
@Coin As do I.
At the risk of repeating myself though, the point here isn't that it's possible to do as much with less, but that while it's far from uncommon to see smaller poses rather obviously come in the name of convenience, with less effort or focus put into them.
I can't expect brilliance from all my fellow roleplayers, that'd be unrealistic and unfair. Just that - well, spend a little time on this thing, don't be doing six things at once out of which one is the scene I'm putting my own time into. So even though not all long poses are excellent - that's fine - at the very least they often show the other player tried.
Well, my point, which I am trying to make implicitly but might as well make explicitly, is that I've found just as many worthless, reactionless, pointless poses that number 10-15 lines, as I have those which are much, much shorter.
If a person is going to give you something to react to, and going to react to you, and going to add to the scene, they are going to do it regardless of the length of their pose, in my experience. Do lazy people tend to go with short poses? Sure. But the pose itself is not more or less valuable--by the merits we've decided to adjudicate in this thread; i.e. "does it add to the scene and acknowledge it"--by length.
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note. I'd much rather, if you're not going to add something, that the pose at least be short and quick to read--or better yet, just leave.
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@Coin said:
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note.
Just page-roleplay with other people during the 15 minutes. Or keep a book handy. Or watch something on YouTube. Or vape some weed. I do all of the above.
These people don't bother me at all. I enjoy having lots of time to consider what I'm going to do next, as well.
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@Cirno said:
@Coin said:
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note.
Just page-roleplay with other people during the 15 minutes. Or keep a book handy. Or watch something on YouTube. Or vape some weed. I do all of the above.
These people don't bother me at all. I enjoy having lots of time to consider what I'm going to do next, as well.
You're missing the point, though (or you're trolling). Let me be even more explicit:
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note.
It's not the wait, it's that the wait is worthless. At least in @Arkandel's case, his wait finalizes in a short pose he can read in a few seconds. If I have to read two paragraphs of nothing of note, then it's considerably more annoying.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin said:
@Cirno said:
@Coin said:
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note.
Just page-roleplay with other people during the 15 minutes. Or keep a book handy. Or watch something on YouTube. Or vape some weed. I do all of the above.
These people don't bother me at all. I enjoy having lots of time to consider what I'm going to do next, as well.
You're missing the point, though (or you're trolling). Let me be even more explicit:
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note.
It's not the wait, it's that the wait is worthless. At least in @Arkandel's case, his wait finalizes in a short pose he can read in a few seconds. If I have to read two paragraphs of nothing of note, then it's considerably more annoying.
No, I don't even care about that. Because, like I said, I'm usually doing other things while MU* ing, or, at least, I did when I used to MU* .
I am actually more annoyed with people who harass me nonstop with rapid-fire poses, to be honest.
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@Cirno said:
@Coin said:
@Cirno said:
@Coin said:
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note.
Just page-roleplay with other people during the 15 minutes. Or keep a book handy. Or watch something on YouTube. Or vape some weed. I do all of the above.
These people don't bother me at all. I enjoy having lots of time to consider what I'm going to do next, as well.
You're missing the point, though (or you're trolling). Let me be even more explicit:
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note.
It's not the wait, it's that the wait is worthless. At least in @Arkandel's case, his wait finalizes in a short pose he can read in a few seconds. If I have to read two paragraphs of nothing of note, then it's considerably more annoying.
No, I don't even care about that. Because, like I said, I'm usually doing other things while MU* ing, or, at least, I did when I used to MU* .
I am actually more annoyed with people who harass me nonstop with rapid-fire poses, to be honest.
You mean we have different preferences and your solution and attitudes to things are not always applicable to things I experience and vice-versa? Gasp, it's almost like this very same thing has happened with you involved in this very same thread..!
If you don't care about something that someone else finds annoying, then solutions you think work for you are probably not going to address their problem.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin said:
@Cirno said:
@Coin said:
@Cirno said:
@Coin said:
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note.
Just page-roleplay with other people during the 15 minutes. Or keep a book handy. Or watch something on YouTube. Or vape some weed. I do all of the above.
These people don't bother me at all. I enjoy having lots of time to consider what I'm going to do next, as well.
You're missing the point, though (or you're trolling). Let me be even more explicit:
I get just as annoyed with people who make me wait fifteen minutes for a very long pose that I have to actually read and which contains absolutely nothing of note.
It's not the wait, it's that the wait is worthless. At least in @Arkandel's case, his wait finalizes in a short pose he can read in a few seconds. If I have to read two paragraphs of nothing of note, then it's considerably more annoying.
No, I don't even care about that. Because, like I said, I'm usually doing other things while MU* ing, or, at least, I did when I used to MU* .
I am actually more annoyed with people who harass me nonstop with rapid-fire poses, to be honest.
You mean we have different preferences and your solution and attitudes to things are not always applicable to things I experience and vice-versa? Gasp, it's almost like this very same thing has happened with you involved in this very same thread..!
If you don't care about something that someone else finds annoying, then your solutions are probably not going to address their problem.
I'm explaining how I respond to this stimulus; it wasn't really a directive from me to you. Sorry if you thought it was.
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@Coin said:
It's not the wait, it's that the wait is worthless. At least in @Arkandel's case, his wait finalizes in a short pose he can read in a few seconds. If I have to read two paragraphs of nothing of note, then it's considerably more annoying.
If your partner just isn't very good at roleplaying - which in this context is more about interacting and collaborating with those around them than merely writing skillfully - then it's going to happen anyway. Short pose or long, if they give you nothing to work with then that's a frustration completely independent from their prose's length.
I think (but you can correct me if you disagree) these are two correlated but somewhat separate skills - that is, writing and roleplaying.
Now, I've been on the receiving end of bad roleplaying either way. I've seen poses which ... well, the best way I can describe them is they read like a thesaurus threw up all over them, filled with lines and lines of synonyms to describe the exact same thing without adding to the scene's atmosphere, embelishing on its mood or trying to invoke an emotional response from me. That's a given, I'm not going to defend that. And obviously I've seen poses which sounded precisely like what they were; a few hastily put words after a few minutes when the other player was done doing whatever else in another window and/or real life.
The difference here is effort. Is it frustrating to play with someone who can't give me something to latch onto and build some chemistry with them? Yup. But at the very least I can tell they tried - it may be narcististic and self-indulging but they showed up for the scene. It's not ideal, mind you, but it's something.
Finally, almost nothing (*) excuses regular 10-15 minutes between posing. If the scene's tempo is that slow I lose interest fast. Sure, some players are awesome enough that their eventual response makes my jaw drop a bit and then... damn... take as long as you need to! But those aren't exactly common.
(*) Just to be sure to put this here... if you tell me in advance you're busy or will be slow for any reason so I have the option of staying or going (or just skipping you) then there are no issues at all. Take as long as you have to.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
Short pose or long, if they give you nothing to work with then that's a frustration completely independent from their prose's length.
Except, like I said above, it's not when the length of the wait and the length of the pose are both very long and the pose is worthless. If it's a worthless pose I can read in two seconds, it's less annoying than one I have to slog through.
It's not completely independent if one of them makes the other more annoying.
My point is that it's the quality of the pose that matters in the end, when deciding whether the wait is justified, not the length. You may find value in them at least trying, but I find value in them not wasting my time.
And while I may seem to be arguing this very passionately, it's actually not that big of a deal. I typically just don't play with those people very much. But then, I play less and less lately.
The only time this really annoys me is when people insist on typing long poses in big group scenes. I don't care how well you pose, if there's more than a few people in the scene, fucking trim it down.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin said:
the only time this really annoys me is when people insist on typing long poses in big group scenes. I don't care how well you pose, if there's more than a few people in the scene, fucking trim it down.
I used to be that person, but I didn't do it on purpose.
After studying a few manuals of the english language, however, I began to trim my poses down. And now I don't RP at all. I may have overdone it a little.
