RL peeves! >< @$!#

[Arkandel]

I know nothing about mental illness or addiction except for what I've read in books or seen on TV, so my opinion means nothing. But it always seemed a very odd thing that anyone suffering from an illness of any kind would be expected to just 'get over it'. That's why it's an illness, and in this case a chronic one. If you have a severely broken leg you can't get over that, you can medicate to treat the symptoms and that's it.

As for making jokes... same deal. I guess if I'm close enough to someone that I feel comfortable making fun of any condition they have knowing they won't be upset, I probably would from time to time. But even then it'd need to be very sporadic. It's fine to be at ease around your friends and shoot the shit but there's a very definite line past which you're just being an asshole.

[Cobalt]

@Arkandel said:

But it always seemed a very odd thing that anyone suffering from an illness of any kind would be expected to just 'get over it'.

I hope I am not coming across that way. Am I?

I don't mean to. I know you can't just "get over it" when it comes to addiction, or depression. However, if someone absolutely refuses any help and instead just wants to continue taking from you-- the best thing you can do is just step away. If someone wants the help, give them all of the help you can possibly give them (financial, emotional, etc). If they don't want the help... trying to help them isn't going to help make a difference.

[tragedyjones]

I learned in a training course the other day that Severe Depression can be as life impairing as being paraplegic. Now imagine that someone has that level of disability, and will not allow you to help, that is probably a broken heart waiting to happen!

[silentsophia]

I imagine that could be due to risk of suicide and/or the psychosis (or psychotic breaks). It's tough to do stuff when you're uh, out on a break, as it were. This is alongside the longterm stuff like heart damage.

[Luna]

School isn't always about learning things. Sometimes the lesson you learn is how to cough up exactly what the bossman wants so you can move on with your life. This professor wants some bullshit about xyz so I give him that and we both move on. These people have devoted years of their life to study of this topic. They think what they have to say is important. That's all.

[Cobalt]

@Luna said:

School isn't always about learning things. Sometimes the lesson you learn is how to cough up exactly what the bossman wants so you can move on with your life.

This is a fair point.

@tragedyjones said:

I learned in a training course the other day that Severe Depression can be as life impairing as being paraplegic. Now imagine that someone has that level of disability, and will not allow you to help, that is probably a broken heart waiting to happen!

It is, yes.

[Coin]

@Luna said:

School isn't always about learning things. Sometimes the lesson you learn is how to cough up exactly what the bossman wants so you can move on with your life. This professor wants some bullshit about xyz so I give him that and we both move on. These people have devoted years of their life to study of this topic. They think what they have to say is important. That's all.

I'd argue that that's a fair point when it comes to basic schooling, but once you're into college or courses that you want to take for your actual education and that are your choice, if someone is teaching you a lesson in obedience to a professor/boss, that better fucking be what you wanted to learn.

IMO.

[Luna]

@Coin College courses aren't always your choice though. Everyone has classes that aren't their major they have to take. Like Humanities. Ew. I'm super STEM. I just learned to regurgitate what some humanities professor wants, because I could give a fuck.

[The Tree of Woe]

And I find the STEM-focused types to be artless, soulless choads who have to break everything down into a numbers game, and in so doing ruin everything.

[Luna]

Uh. I didn't say anything bad about humanities or people who love them. Just that I am super STEM, I don't get things the way people who are really into the Humanities do, therefore, I have learned to give someone what they want because it's not my cup of tea. I'm an accountant. So yeah, I'm pretty numbers oriented.

But you can be insulted if you really want, @The-Tree-of-Woe. It wasn't what I intended.

I am half ginger, so the soulless isn't too off the mark.

[The Tree of Woe]

@Luna Not really offended, no.

I have seen mathematical types sit down at the old gaming table and strip away narrative and drama in favor of putting together the biggest number combo, and it does annoy me. But it isn't fair to paint everyone with the same brush.

That was nasty of me, and I do apologize.

[Sundown]

At least with a boss, you're being paid for it. And I'd rather have my education focused on actual knowledge, not some sort of obedience training seminar.

I kinda resent this comment from earlier upthread:

@Admiral

It's educated folks who try to find meaning in bullshit that makes uneducated folks believe that education is pointless.

What if it's educated folks determining that the academia is spewing glorified bullshit? I agree that something complex can seem like bullshit on the surface if you don't know enough about it. However, in my estimation, a large percentage of humanities-related academia (my field of interest) was utter crap. If you tried to portray me as uneducated, I could tell you things that'd make me seem like a Mary Sue RP concept. I agree that sometimes those who don't understand things deride them out of insecurity, but sometimes they are derided because they deserve it.

Academia is the place where true progress and invention go to die. It's the place of regurgitation and Kafkaesque meaninglessness. It's sad because it's supposed to be the exact opposite. (Referring to the humanities fields.)

The major knowledge that I value from my years at uni is De Saussures linguistic theory and an insight into Victorian literature and the difference in their perspective from today's mindset. Perhaps some other bits here and there, but enough to count on the fingers of my hands. That should not be it. What have I gained from Barthes' mismatched puzzles? From post-modernist prattle? A harshly critical view of the academia, I suppose.

[The Tree of Woe]

I always felt like part of the point of humanities was critical thinking -- past a certain point you have to examine what you instructors are telling you and reach your own conclusions, that your professors are people, and perspectives matter.

For instance, I learned a lot about writing -- and I learned that if your teacher is an upper-class white suburbanite they're not going to understand the kid who loves viking metal and the kid who loves punk music (neither of which were me).

I also learned that the flamboyantly gay professor will give you a lot more respect if you're the only man in the class with the don't-give-a-shit to sit next to him. I didn't even realize it until my buddy (who also didn't give a damn) pointed out that all the other guys in class were always on the other side of the ring-o-desks.

[Luna]

@The-Tree-of-Woe It's cool. I have purple hair, so I'm a bit off center for an accountant, but the cliche/stereotype exists for a reason. It's not an invalid notion.

As for the rest, I think we're more going along with the tangent of Cobalt hates this class, rather than programs as a whole. Or at least that's the context I was taking it in. I'm very confused by the stalwart notion of I PAID FOR THIS SO I LOVE IT. I must be confused, there were classes I've had to take that I didn't want any part of. I'm pretty sure most people have this experience. Maybe you get something out of it, maybe you don't.

Why do I have a feeling this is going to get into some sort of weird penis measuring thing over who's totes smrtst? Well educated? Cool. This doesn't mean you have to go out of your way to make people who aren't feel like shit. Which happens a lot. Educated dick cliches exist for a reason.

[Sundown]

Critical thinking is what they should be about, I agree, and developing your own views. In respect to that, I will say that my professors were fair and supportive. No matter how scathing my essays were about a certain author, I usually supported it with good arguments. They would give me good grades and praise the critical approach. When I'd ask logical questions instead of regurgitating what one might think the professor wants to hear, I'd also get a positive response.

I feel that something gets lost in mass-education. Mass-education, mass-religion, mass-anything turns into mediocrity or worse. There's huge inertia and things are very slow to change. On one hand, it's a production line for degree-holders. On the other hand, most students are kids who have no idea what they're doing, and the system has to make something useful out of them. Eh.

I always say that alternative modes of education aren't for every kid, but they would've been a godsend for me.

[silentsophia]

@The-Tree-of-Woe I like biology and I like art. But some people don't consider biology a hard science, but fuck those guys. I'll slap 'em with a cactus if they start talking shit. Life is a beautiful, cruel and fascinating work of art.

I also hate it when STEM people act like douches in humanities class, like one chick in a German class I took was like, "UGH I AM AN ENGINEERING MAJOR. I DO NOT HAVE TIME FOR THIS HUMANITIES BULLSHIT." Well, gosh. Take a different, easier language then? God forbid someone learn how to communicate, read critically or take up another language. And don't be an asshole in someone's class. You can think that all you want, but saying it in the middle of class and being a completely useless group work partner is asinine.

[BetterJudgment]

If I want to hear about alcoholism and addiction as the subject of somebody's discourse, I'll go to a meeting. If I want to to read something where alcoholism is a one factor shaping a story about many other things, I"ll read Charles Bukowski. I can't imagine reading someone's "triumph over self-inflicted adversity" story unless they're damn funny and unsparing of themselves. Otherwise, it's just another Afterschool Special.

I can't get being "so STEM" that you can't muster interest in any other subject, though. I grew up reading myth, fantasy, and my father's issues of Scientific American (from the 60s and 70s when they were good). The only reason I never liked lab sciences when I was first in school was that I was too much of a klutz and a fuck-up to be able to do anything right. Yes, crappy instructors can kill anything, but I've known some excellent and rigorous ones in the humanities.

[The Tree of Woe]

@silentsophia She's an engineer... who doesn't think she'd benefit from learning at least passable German?

Yeah.

[silentsophia]

@The-Tree-of-Woe Yeah. I was kind of 'wtf' at it, too.

And my magic, ritual and religions professor was great. I swear he did half the hallucinogens he lectured about. It was a glorious foray into the human experience. Oh, and a lot of other animals get high and drunk. Anthropology is pretty hefty on the scientific rigor depending on one's discipline. I really loved getting to do forensic anthro with Dr. Melbye, for one example.

I think a lot schools require basic reading, communication and writing courses because good lord, a lot of STEM people are fucking awful at expressing anything in writing and some just can't communicate in general which is really, really bad in a job environment (gods only know I have a metric assload of communication issues). There are reasons technical and scientific writers will be in demand and that includes having to explain to the very people that fund you what you are doing and why it's important beyond 'it's SCIENCE, plebes'.

But I kind of like a balanced favor, and I think @BetterJudgment has a lot of good points, too.

[Luna]

I think more or less it boils down to 'everyone can be an elitist dickface'.