I don't know the folks on KD, don't have anything against them, but I'll just say I'll always feel the purpose of staff alt characters should be to create story for other people. I think unless you are willing to always make the spotlight on someone else and enjoy telling stories that way, staffing will always end with disappointment for someone. They can be important and fun supporting characters, but they must be supporting characters. This isn't really about KD at all, and I mean them no disrespect, but it seems to be a common problem in MUs in general.
Posts made by Apos
-
RE: Kushiel's Debut
-
RE: How should we (as a community) handle MediaWiki
@Griatch said in How should we (as a community) handle MediaWiki:
Interesting thread. Out of curiosity l looked into using Django with mediawiki and promptly found this: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/django-semantic-mediawiki/0.1 which is basically a direct integration of Django's (and thus Evennias) database with the mediawiki API. I've not tested it, but it might be an interesting project for an Evennia user interested in modifying and accessing wiki data directly from in-game (make a wiki page for your character and see it in-game, the wiki page updating as things happen to the char in-game ... auto-post logs, sync avatar images to show in the web client etc etc...)
.
GriatchOrly. Time to point that out to Tehom.
-
RE: Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning
Working on finishing some of the last major systems within the next few weeks, if all goes well, and then we can kick the story off and move into beta. With that in mind, if some intrepid souls want to join in the alpha and don't mind the systems being in flux as they get tweaked and revamped, it wouldn't hurt to have a few more people stressing and breaking things as they do some early prequel RP to feel out their characters.
For the interested, can check out the available characters on play.arxmush.org under the characters tab, or log in (same address, port 3000) and check out the roster or make their own character with the CG system that still needs a bit of tweaking. For those wanting for things to be a bit more polished, probably be a month-ish I think. Always a very rough ballpark depending on how much revamping needs to happen.
-
RE: How does a Mu* become successful?
@Lithium I would think that would call for something like: "I'm sorry you feel that way and I hope you guys find the right game that appeals to you and wish you all the luck in the future." I mean some folks just can't collaborate and it's okay to part ways, I figure.
-
RE: How does a Mu* become successful?
@mietze said in How does a Mu* become successful?:
I feel you, Wretched. One of the irritating and just morale grating experiences I had on TR as a Ling admin was denying MGMT his fucking 9 foot long tail and a whole bunch of other shit mien...at Wyrd 2. So much public boohooing, lying, so much other people saying "OMG YOU BITCH Y U DENY PLAYERS SOMETHING". Verbal abuse on the job, in pages. Relentless. But you know, guy was "having a bad day, he's not usually that bad."
Who on earth puts staff in a position where they have to rein in players for thematic violations without empowering them also to deal with abuse? Wtf, that's horrible. If some staff told me I made a desc or background or whatever that was over the line, I would be like mortified and apologize. Who fights about that shit?
-
RE: Seeking Input on a Game Idea
@Chuggur said in Seeking Input on a Game Idea:
I have a lot of other provisions and ideas in mind, obviously such a system would be quite complex at the end of the day. But I was hoping to hear from you all some general feedback on the concept itself. Does this sound like something that would be popular? Has it been done before? If so, was it successful? What sorts of hurdles would such a system face? What dangers would need to be provisioned for?
I think it sounds fun, and you have a lot of good ideas. I think there might not be as much feedback on this board since while the systems sound super fun, compelling and has enormous potential, that is very much the macro system of the game and doesn't focus so much on the RP which is a pretty heavy focus on the boards. Nothing wrong with making a complicated explore/prosper style MUD that's not RP focused, just might not have a lot of folks here with strong opinions one way or the other.
Now about your more specific questions, I've seen similar things but only in the broadest sense. A lot of survival orientated games have a similar angle in the 'start with nothing and then build up from there', and a few MMO style games too, though I'm not familiar with those kind of systems in a MU (I think my approach on Arx is different enough where it's not quite the same feel as what you are going for). I think if you implemented what you described it would be popular, and the hurdles would be ones that are similar to most survival->buildup style games:
As the world becomes increasingly developed and you have more and more control shift into the hands of players leading the strongest factions, they tend to squeeze out newer players and make it very difficult for smaller characters to feel significant, and in the worst cases, strangle out new players entirely. But if you introduce countermeasures to player control to stop that, often it makes the biggest and most successful players feel cheated, or burn out as they try to compete with the entropy effects that attempt them to stop from taking over the game world. That's not really a direct parallel to what you are describing, but you still might have to approach it from the angle of 'all characters start small, can build big organizations, they only get so big to a certain point then stop, then some post-maximum minigame starts'. That's one angle to deal with the, 'One guy controls every settlement and squeezes out all players' thing that has similar games constantly rebooting and restarting new world instances so people get to experience that initial rush.
Just my take on the challenges facing the 'build settlements to slowly influence the game world' design. It can be super fun, just have to be careful of the end points.
-
RE: Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes
@ThatGuyThere said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
To me having them separate makes sense, simply looking at combat, a WoD combat round is a matter of seconds much like that for any other rpg system. The actual time needed to play this out is well more then seconds, even in table top. Pretty much every RPG book I have ever read addresses the matter of IC time not equaling RL time. If MUDs want to say it is that is fine but then also to make sure that it takes longer to travel your grid during Rush hours at least on a modern game.
I think this really captures well what @Ganymede was talking about earlier in the simulation vs narration, which is also what I think the key cultural difference between a mush and mud. I don't think most mush players hate coded systems really (look at RfK), but they deeply resent any coded system that removes narration and applies the simulation in a way that yields an absurd result they disagree with. Where a character dies because code say it happens, even if a player can think of a dozen reasons that code doesn't make sense. It's not imo that the MUD attempt at simulation was wrong, but missing variables from a coder not thinking of them is jarring and is no longer immersive. I'm pretty sure most mush players are okay with code that would operate largely the same way a narrative would play out and just automates it, but a lot of MUDs try to take a step way past that, and then ignore mitigating circumstances. That's where I think most of the cultural pushback happens.
-
RE: How does a Mu* become successful?
@ThatGuyThere I don't think you're all that pessimistic so much as a realist that a lot of games have no desire at all to be larger, since doing so would compromise the ability of staff to deal with people on a one-on-one basis. There's a very concrete upper bound to how much time head staff has after all, and if they want to deal personally with each player on the game in a routine way, that makes games of thousands of players impossible. They've already decided what kind of game they wanna be, they are happy with it, and there's nothing wrong with that.
It just seems to me to be a very important consideration when the topic question was about "How does a MU become successful" was taken to meaning how popular it was, when a lot of games cannot go past a certain point without losing their identity and how they work. For other games that are designed in mind with accommodating a much bigger pool of players, it's different and they can feel free to go for it.
-
RE: How does a Mu* become successful?
I'm actually a little optimistic for the future, even though I share pretty much your concerns identically.
I think the MU format offers something unique that's very difficult to duplicate in any other RP format, but the way it's designed right now is extremely difficult for anyone new to get into, it has no way at all of introducing people to it except by word of mouth, and almost any change in format alienates its shrinking pool of enthusiasts.
Those are are definitely problems, but I don't think they are insurmountable ones. I think they can be addressed. But as much as I want to see the hobby do well, and grow again, and be in a healthy place, I think there's another problem any kind of next gen game would have to address- surviving it being extremely popular. There's definitely enough role-players out there, like just looking at a popular play-by-post forum I counted tens of millions of posts and they had around a hundred thousand users. An enjin website for guild wars 2 role-players had about 13,000 users. That's a niche community site for a single MMO that doesn't even officially support role-playing at all. What would happen if 10 percent of the population of either of those sites decided to give a single MU a try?
Right now, I think even one percent would probably overload most games. The unique things MUs really offer is hands on GMing to let players pursue their own stories in a collaborative environment with others, and I don't think any staff is big enough to handle a hundred new players showing up out of the blue. More to the point, there's not a whole lot of incentive for game runners to introduce new people to the hobby- their hands are generally full, and when it comes to telling the stories they find fun, they can only deal with so many people at once. So after a certain point they are either going to be sandboxes with increasingly distant staff, or games using heavy automation.
There's definitely worse problems to have, and I think most games could handle it if they have enough time and preparation. And overall, I actually think it's a good sign. I mean if there's hundreds of thousands of role-players out there on random sites that have never ever heard of MUs, and there very obviously is, then there's plenty of role-players. Just need to decide whether they want them or not.
-
RE: Core Memories Instead of BG?
I like it a lot. I think some players might need to be nudged to explain how they got from Point A to Point B, but shit that happens in regular BGs anyways.
-
RE: Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes
Is it me or are most of the, 'You abandoned me!' 'NO I WAS THERE ALL ALONG' arguments from dysfunctional IC couples arguing about whether one person is active enough? I'll take Shit I Never Want To Arbitrate As Staff for a thousand, Alex.
-
RE: How does a Mu* become successful?
@Kestrel said in How does a Mu* become successful?:
Which I think brings me to another relevant point: maybe the question in the title is just inherently bad. How does a MU* become successful? MU*s aren't successful. To become successful, they would need to become something else entirely. Were I designing my own, I'd probably combine MUD & MUSH elements with play-by-post and instead design a user-friendly website with a dynamic map/chatroom application, auto-logging features accessible in a navbar, player/character profiles, etc.
Well, I dunno about saying 'MUs aren't successful', since I think anyone running a game they and their players enjoy are successful on their own merits, but I would just rephrase it as, 'In order for a MU* to have strong appeal to role-players outside the MU* community'. And in that I largely agree, though I think it takes a really long time to get there. The, 'yeah we need to replace archaic type terminal windows with something with a more modern and accessible feel off the web' is definitely a big deal and a compelling long term goal, but I think the game can have a pretty strong appeal if it focuses on the other areas you mentioned first, like having stuff that appeals to play-by-post players who has a distinctly different style than MUs.
-
RE: How does a Mu* become successful?
@surreality I thought a good bit about Bartle-types when doing design, which probably makes me super old too, and I thought explorers were a tricky one to please since I think it's really hard to make enough content that they wouldn't immediately use up.
I wasn't really thinking how the larger guild of Arx would appeal to explorers bartle-types, even when I wrote in a bunch of easter eggs- I just found it fun to do from a design standpoint. I kind of figured explorer types would need something meatier, so we focused on a dynamic generated/explorable outside world as an extra little mini-game.
I think most mushes could do this with softcode but it would probably be more difficult, someone would probably have to make a dozen different random types of rooms with then a few dozen random types of events happening as you find the rooms, generated automatically when a character discovers them and is then able to leave their mark in some way based off the encounters.
-
RE: Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes
@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
I would be okay with that second meta pose but a lot of people would bristle at it. It's entertaining and probably accurate. If you had posed how you thought he was a jerk but would never say so out loud, you are denying the other player retort to an insult. That is not okay.
Is it different if I use my character's silently-held disdain to explain the atmosphere of the scene? e.g.:
When @Thenomain walks up to Kestrel, she just glares. She thinks he's a jerk, but of course she'd never say that out loud. And so biting back her insult, she grits her teeth and says, "Good day... sir."
I think it's more common for mush RPers to just go a safer route of expressing the same thing without anything that can be taken as commentary. For example, rewriting it as When he walks up to Kestrel, she just glares, radiating hostility of things left unsaid. She grits her teeth and says, "Good day... sir." In this version it's very clearly something she can do and say, and there's no reading her mind or anything metapose-y about it, but gets across the same gist.
-
RE: Auspice's Playlist
Not sure if you were the same Tanya I played Kadikos with, but if you were, I thought you did really well with the character.
-
RE: Base Code Question
@Lithium Personally, if I was trying to do the same thing, I probably would give evennia a try. I think python is a lot easier to learn than much more complicated soft code even though it's a hard code language, so if you are in the situation of like trying to adopt tinymush style lisp-like language or taking an evennia game out the box and customizing it in python, I think it'd be much less of a headache going with python. As I recall, evennia out the box already comes with a MUD like split of a player object vs the character object they are puppeting, so I don't think it would be so bad to go from that to leaving corpse objects on the ground that animate.
-
RE: Faction-Based Villain Policy Idea
I was reading @Lithium's statement as 'Protagonists who are unwilling to risk character death <...oocly while still behaving in a manner that is very self-evidently risky are abusing the good nature of GMs who are unwilling to punish them for grandstanding behavior>'. I pretty much figure @surreality and @Lithium both agree that risk has to be meaningful and trivializing it in any fashion detracts from the environment.
I think it's so universal that everyone agrees, but there's just some bad eggs who ruin it by only wanting risk to be very risky for everyone else and not themselves, and some staff are just too nice to bring them back into line. Or worse the abusers are staff and punish everyone else while giving themselves or friends a pass. Environment just kind of collapses when people get away with that.
-
RE: Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning
A little lore intro that might be helpful, since I've gotten asked for a little more about the theme/lore:
An excerpt from Scholar Tobias the Dubious's "A Brief History of Arvum":
"Early histories, before the founding of the great capital city of Arx, are poor enough to drive any dedicated scholar to drink. Incomplete at best, maddeningly vague, contradictory, and written in a poetic style far more concerned with the weave of a good tale to make a better song, not a one before The Reckoning can be relied upon.
A scholar then relies only upon what we can be reasonably certain is true, rather than being another small voice contributing to the great cacophony of dubious history. We know this to be true: the great noble houses of the realm predate the Reckoning by at least centuries, and we can place the time of the Reckoning at roughly a thousand years ago.
"What was the Reckoning?" A question only a child or foreigner from outside of Arvum might ask, since every man or woman grown in the Realm knows the tale. A thousand years ago, men had grown arrogant enough to ignore the warnings of the gods to not meddle with the dark realm beyond the Mirror. Magic, the writers of the time tell us, was too strong a lure and the gods were forgotten in the face of the great power the dark forces on the other side were willing to bestow upon willing petitioners. Scholars should remain skeptical of these tales. Much and more of this is surely poetry, the metaphor and allegory of the writers of the day to represent man's hubris, since we have little evidence that magic or demons or any of the like ever truly existed. None the less, the tales tell us that the practice of dark magic grew so wide-spread, that the demons were finally able to cross into our world in a great sundering we all call the Reckoning. The new invaders had little interest in being the minions of mere mortal men, and set upon a great war of subjugation, exterminating all in the realm that refused to bend the knee before the demonic onslaught.
We scholars can presume that such a great war did happen, though were they demons? It seems wiser to presume that the invaders were some great host from another continent, men of a fierce sort certainly, but men none the less. We can likewise agree with the tales that the houses fell one after another, outmatched by these invaders, whatever their nature. And we can find some veracity in the claims of what happened next. The great noble houses, finding themselves pushed to the brink of extinction and annihilation, banded together in one great last stand, creating the fortress of Arx.
The priests tell us that the gods themselves defended in the final battle of the Reckoning, throwing back the demons. Each great house has their own heroes that echo back to those halcyon days, with their own tales of valor and final victory as they threw back the demonic host from Arx. We can imagine there is a grain of truth in all the tales, if only the great battle of Arx was made of mere men fighting other men of a fiercer sort. We do know the traditions that arise from the founding of Arx as the last bastion that saved the realm; the family of each of the great houses traditionally live in Arx, even if though the seat of their power still resides in the capital city of their homelands. At the time of the Reckoning, the Compact was not as we know it today. One of the kings spoke as first among equals, but power was still equal between each of the houses, and the Compact lost all meaning in the centuries of rebuilding that followed the time of the Reckoning, even if Arx grew and prospered as a central hub between each of the five kingdoms of Arvum.
All five of the kingdoms of Arvum had been ravaged during the Reckoning, with few men surviving outside of Arx's protective walls. Some descendants of those survivors still harry and trouble the kingdoms today, uncivilized clans that cite a thousand year-old grievance of being abandoned and left outside of Arx's protection, and do not obey the Compact's right and proper ban on the practice of witchcraft and magic. The Abandoned, as they call themselves, are hardly a threat to the great houses and their kingdoms, but are a sad reminder that not even our greatest victory came without cost.
We can presume it was one of these sad tribes that harried our ancestors terribly during the centuries of rebuilding. Commonfolk and legends will call these new enemies the elves, but wise scholars are advised to take such names with a great deal of skepticism. Riding on beasts of the forest, creating great living siege weapons of earth and tree, wielding fantastic magic- all these are the stories that are told of the elves, who had grown furious that the expansion of man resettling the lands lost during the Reckoning threatened lands they now claimed. Skirmishes led to small wars, which were settled in fragile peace treaties, and so it went for generations during rebuilding. A particularly bloody war led the soft hearted King Alaron Grayson to seek a lasting peace with the elves, bringing the heads of the great houses to meet with the elf king at a great peace summit under a flag of truce.
Unfortunately, the King of the Compact was more kindly than wise, and the peace summit was an elaborate trap, where these treacherous so-called elves slew the king and most of the great leaders of the day, then proceeded to launch a devastating war against all of the kingdoms of Arvum, intent on wiping out men for good and all.
The king left no sons, and the great houses were in chaos from the deaths of their own leaders, with a number of the heirs unprepared for the ferocity of the unexpected attack by the elves. The king had left only a daughter, and every great house followed male primogeniture, which left all in doubt of the young woman's capacity to rule, and the elves did not take her seriously as a threat. The elves mocked the very notion, sending to Arx the defiled remains of the king, with his head to be delivered to his daughter. But that young woman would go down in history as Queen Alarice the Great, known as the Elvenbane, First of her name and the greatest ruler House Grayson ever produced.
It was Queen Alarice that rallied the great houses, invoking the almost forgotten Compact for mutual defense that had not seen the houses fight as one since the days of the Reckoning, starting the count of the calendars we still use to this day. It was Queen Alarice that led the armies of the Compact, taking back the lands of Arvum inch by bloody inch. And it was Queen Alarice that killed the Elven King in single combat, driving out the so called elves for good and all, and founding the Elfbone Throne. Many of the traditions we still honor, such as the right of the eldest child regardless of gender to inherit are derived from her reign, and the High Kings and Queens have often been seen as the true ruler of Arvum rather than just an arbitrator of disputes between the greatest of houses. Sadly, in the last five hundred years, few of our rulers could prove her equal.
It is in one of these troubled times that we now live. The young King Alaric Grayson, Fourth of His Name, has fallen ill and is unable to rule. The regent Bisland is torn between the different competing interests of the Great Houses, and the young king has no issue of his body, with no obvious heir remaining. In times of old, this would mean the Compact elects a new high king of their number, but no election has been forthcoming. We face not the myths and dangers of the past, but the ambitions of all those mighty enough to wield power in Arx. Those ambitions are dangerous indeed."
-
RE: Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning
@ixokai said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
Generally speaking, heavily coded isn't, BUT, they seem to be wanting to take cues from MUSHes that the coding isn't for RP things but instead stuff like crafting and direct combat, which I'm more okay with.
Mushes are pretty much my favorite storytelling format for any kind of role-playing, so I definitely don't wanna detract from that. Just give a few more tools that might be useful, rather than would get in the way.
-
RE: Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning
@ixokai You do have a point there, though I suspect a lot of this is people trying to use a familiar command, finding it's not there and getting a, 'I have to learn everything again? Well, screw this' reaction. I don't even think that really makes people lazy or anything like that, so much as MU formats can be really arcane and downright annoying to learn. For command type stuff, that might not be so terrible since we can try to replicate a lot of different formats with heavy command aliasing so it feels more intuitive to players. Can't fix all of it, since a lot of games have mutually exclusive commands that do wildly different things with the same formats, but hopefully enough where just logging in and getting started doesn't feel like work. An alpha tester saying, 'GOD WHY CAN'T I <command I've never heard of>' basically has me scramble since it's that immediate gut reaction that I worry about.
And of course on the huge fundamental storytelling differences between games, that's a whole other animal and set of challenges to worry about.