Posts made by Arkandel

@thatguythere We don't need to (and we won't) be perfect, but we can try. Flagging and reporting posts could work, too.

Consider it an experiment - what do we have to lose by giving it a shot?

@surreality This full season's Big Bad is an alternate reality where things went preeeetyy apocalyptic. Not saying it's the best setting for a game, but it's right there and very current.

@bored said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@arkandel I think it's not irrelevant to identify that some people want something much different than other people want. I think its useful to identify it and actually see how we can make it work for everyone.

Citation needed there.

That's a true fallacy - probably unintentional in your case - to try and claim which point of view is popular or not. How do you know? How can you?

And even if one was what does it mean?

@popes Yeah, I'd play on a WoT MUSH so hard I wouldn't even flake out right away!

@insomnia Supernatural is so rich and it's so easy to cross it over with other pop culture genres and add tropes to it, it's probably ideal for a MUSH. My caveat above was pretty much the only hiccup I can think of.

@bored said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@arkandel I'm really not trying to target them or be negative (like, really truly, honestly, I'm not), but pointing out they represent a pretty specific end of the of viewpoint specturm. Their argument is 'the constructive forum is already this, but people are terrible and keep it from working.'

I believe you. It just doesn't matter, and it's important that you (and all of us) understand that.

First of all we can do with less labels on people who represent some kind of point of view, be it a fringe or popular one.

But also it's a distraction. The emphasis needs to be on the arguments themselves, not other posters. It's just... aside from the negative connotations people usually end up using, it's less interesting.

@insomnia I always liked the idea of Supernatural as the setting for a MUSH.

Here's a question for you: How (and if) would you intend to tackle one of Hunter-based games which is essentially what this one would be in its heart, namely the reliance on plots for things to happen?

@downwithopp said in Dead Celebrities 2018:

Verne Troyer, 49

Shit

@bored In the spirit of this conversation at least can we refrain from framing it in a way that it targets another person?

Also

@bored said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

She reacted this way to @Arkandel too, in the same discussion. I'm pretty sure you all regard him positively.

ahahah

@surreality said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@faraday That, yep.

There's also the huge difference between "I don't like <thing> about this game," which is also totally chill as a stated opinion, and "this game is <thing> and that makes them completely stupid and everyone who likes that is also stupid."

True, but unfortunately just like personal criticism there are a lot of different ways someone can offer their opinion, some more passive aggressive than others.

@coin It's getting deeper. I'm not sure it will ever have larger appeal because it's so easy to not understand wtf is going on at times especially if you miss out a scene here and there, or even an entire episode.

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

From our conversations beyond the curtain, the answer is still undecided.

It's a work in progress, yes. I'm skeptical about knee-jerk reactions since things are more or less okay. We're not rushing to put out fires, we're trying to improve the forum.

Clearly, there has to be some moderation, but I think the issue is whether we are going to dip in and monitor the place with an iron fist, simply keep an eye open, as we usually do, or somewhere in between. I take Arkandel's comment to mean that we aren't going to go with the former, even if I wouldn't have a problem cracking down like ICE in El Paso.

Right. There are multiple issues with keeping track of every thread and coming down like a ton of bricks on anyone who steps over the line, starting with how tricky it is for even a single person to be consistent about the line let alone three. The time commitment is another issue, as I don't want this to become a 24/7 job for us (let alone to feel like one).

But also I don't think it's necessary. It's quite possible people here are right in that we've been too lax on moderation outside the Hog Pit and we should be more actively keeping things civil, which should be doable without nuking from orbit every time.

Regarding policy, I take Arkandel's comment to mean that forcing people to be nice to one another is beyond the scope of what we'd like to do. Grumpily commenting when there's dog-piling or shit-storming isn't the same thing, in my opinion.

Agreed. We can't fix cliques but we can point it out when we feel the dogpiling is getting out of line.

@lemon-fox That sounds more like a CYA thing to me. I mean... do we need a banner to remind ourselves to behave? And if we're not planning to, is a banner going to change anything?

[Jessop] This my favorite LeBron story. During the Finals in 2014, the Heat locker room was filled to the brim with everyone huddled around his locker. A camera man literally moved me out of the way. LeBron saw. He looked at the guy and said, “apologize to her.” It was EPIC.

@ganymede I can't think of a better outcome than solving our social problems here with a code change, and I'll obviously install and setup any plugin we need. Upvotes, weighed downvotes, you name it.

But let's face it, although such things might help they can only take us so far.

The other thing (which you already know of course) is that although we do try to make MSB universally appealing to the community it's well understood that we can't do that. Any choice we make - or don't - will be liked by some and disliked by others, and of course we are that much more likely to hear back from the latter than the former. It's just how human beings work; there's a stronger incentive to go "ugh" than "yay".

That's why I try to not care about how popular any decision is, or on how many people support it, and focus more on how strong the arguments against or for it are. Sure, that's subjective deal but that's why we get paid the big bucks.

Ultimately cliques and dogpiling aren't solved problems either within MSB or the community it represents. This isn't a separate space with different people than those who frequent the games where we play and carry baggage from, nor can it, and perhaps it shouldn't. Posters here bring their histories with them - it's part of the forum's appeal, after all, that it gives us all a persisting identity that transcends any one game, which has its upsides and its uglier side-effects.

To go back to what you and @Auspice both pointed out... it'd be nice - as in, it'd make our task easier in the exact things we are explicitly being asked to do here by many - if once we do step in and clear our throats at someone there was an understanding that we are not trying to single anyone out.

"But Bob did it to me before!" may or not be a legitimate concern, and one we can address as well seperately, but at that time it's irrelevant. Are you doing something wrong at that time? Is the fact we had to step in and bring you back in line fair? That's what matters, because if we're just going after you to be dicks and you didn't do anything objectively wrong then that's on us, but if you're the one being a dick then it doesn't matter what Bob did to you 'before'.

Don't be a dick.

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

1. Reporting tools can (and are often) used as a form of griefing

Oh I know. Some of the people we banned have used them extensively. Also when there are... let's say strong disagreements we sometimes see multiple reports at the same time about the same thread.

2. Lots of people don't actually hit 'report' when perhaps they should

That's also true. It's important to explain why a post is reported, since not all reports are actually against forum policy. For instance we've had reports in the past about too many Arx posts in a more generic thread, but being slightly off-topic isn't actionable.

Taking those things into consideration for the creation of both policies and in how they are enforced would probably go a long way towards resolving the types of things that have given me the impression of unfair/uneven moderation.

Fair enough.

You absolutely cannot change how I feel about this, no. You CAN help keep other people from feeling this way going forward, though.

I would like that.

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

If you genuinely do give a damn about how I feel about this, maybe stop dismissing me out of hand and consider why I might actually feel this way.

I am not dismissing your feelings. But, as you pointed out, actions speak louder than words and I can only change how we are doing things, not how people feel about them.

That's why I'm trying to give you the point of view from the other side; if you had visibility on our flagged posts you'd see they're coming across the spectrum of 'sides' on MSB about the way they are treated. So perhaps if we can't please everyone then we can at least displease everyone equally.

But my main point here was to address what you said about being unwelcome here. You are not unwelcome. And there's a point made several times in this thread about personal attacks outside of the Hog Pit, so the least we can do is be more vigilant about it since clearly it's one of the things we're less successful at.

@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

One thing Arkandel has pressed in his management method is that he wants us -- as a team -- to be able to participate in the forum as well as moderate and for it to not just become "a job."

Straight up, the day I can't post as a regular forum member is the day I quit administrating on MSB.

But the perception is an issue. Because people see us as "greater than." So if I step into a discussion and say "I disagree," it comes with more weight than if Jimmy over there says it. If I say "I think you're being ridiculous," it comes across as sharper.

People disagree with me all the time. Why can't they perceive my greatness!

But more seriously, I enjoy MSB. I like the hell out of debating MUSH things here, from how to run a Wheel of Time game to privacy issues, posing styles, how to handle who has the spotlight... those things interest me. I hope they interest others as well and more than the popcorn bait threads in the Hog Pit.

But a) there will be mistakes (none of us are perfect and anyone who claims to be fails the test by the mere fact they made an account on this site), b) let me be "just a player" too and remember I'm just a volunteer.

Another thing I want people to remember is that an actively participating admin is a pretty new ('new', since we've been at this for several months now) thing for MSB. Glitch and ES were here but not to the same extent as us three.

Perhaps the notion takes some getting used to, I don't know.

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Because I am. I get super snarky, and I'm sure I'd forget on occasion. Except I have zero faith that it would be consistently enforced, so the heavier moderation would smack me in the nose, while the people who are actively being mean to me...la la la, continue on their way.

Here's my point of view: You feel like this, and so do the people you think are just happily going on their way. Everyone feels singled out when it's their turn.

The line between consistent enforcement and perceiving that enforcement is more unfair to (generic) you than the others is pretty thin.

It's like sports, where players saying that referees should play it 50/50 means they should play it 90/10. It's a human trait; if you ask Tim Duncan he never commited a foul in his career.

Or to rephrase it; it's not my intention to discriminate. I have no incentive to fake playing favorites.

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I'm tired of the way that I've been treated by both the mods and some key vocal posters. I'm not wanted here and I'm well aware of this fact (which should make it easier to just walk, but it doesn't).

I don't think there is anyone on the forum that I don't want to be around. It certainly isn't you.

Just because we've disagreed it doesn't mean you're unwanted. What good is MSB if it's an echo chamber?

@apos said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

So why not an inverse Hog Pit that's also opt in, but extremely heavily moderated and posts have to be in a respectful and civil way, with courtesy and care to avoid starting arguments?

Well, there's no reason why not other than... the rest of the forum outside of the Hog Pit is supposed to kinda be like that! And my worry is that people will read this as permission to be more snarky in the non-reverse non-Hog Pit categories as well.

But again to be honest, I don't want to enter nitpicking territory. As @Ganymede pointed out to me on our super sikrit admin channel yesterday, sometimes the difference between what constitutes a 'personal attack' and what's not is very simple:

"Your opinion is stupid" versus "You are stupid"

So yeah that's an easy one, but what about:

"You are being stupid" or even more veiled insults like "I love how you state the obvious with such a sense of discovery" or "nothing you have to say is of any consequence...to anyone"?

I don't want to police this shit, man. There are a myriad ways people can be cruel to each other without resorting to swear words and I don't intend to sift through them to figure out remark #1 crossed the line but #2 was fine, and then figure out how to be consistent about it, and on top of that try to ensure all three admins are consistent with each other.

So instead what I can (and intend) to do is curtail the worst of it. It's not perfect - as @faraday points out it's still sink-or-swim for some people, either because they have a thinner skin or just because they are targets for whatever reason but that's my threshold for administrating a forum like this. I can go after the people who bust out the fancy Nazi words or who're being creepy, but since the appearance of civility still leaves a lot of leg room to be a shithead to others, it's beyond the scope of administrating MSB.

Like the base tone of the MSB is pretty snarky outside the Hog Pit. That just doesn't work great for keeping threads free of people losing their shit because how dare someone impugn their MU honor or whatever.

That's true. There's definitely way more snark than I'm comfortable with. Not surprisingly when I speak up about it people are like how dare you single me out?? even (or especially) when they were being complete jerks to someone else.

Otherwise it's pretty much setting yourself up for some people to say, 'Hey you guys need to moderate people that upset me outside the Hog Pit, but all my own posts are totally fine since I'm an angelic scholar free from the sins of the world. Btw do this flawlessly and for free.'

And yeah, that's a big part of it as well. I sometimes see staff from games talking to admins in ways they would have banned people ten times over for. It is pretty hypocritical, but I guess it's part of the job.