@Misadventure said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
I dislike this skill bypass idea. It goes against everything that nature and rpg design is about. That experience matters.
Except the theory is that when you are confronted with a werewolf in Gauru, your Defense is reduced to your instincts because of the sheer terror. Removing the Skill is just the mechanic that takes. It also applies to other werewolves in Gauru, so it's really just a universal bonus to a Gauru-shaped werewolf.
@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
But it's a fun exercise to do number crunching anyway.
And power-checking! Let's not forget that.
Not sure if I agree with @Coin at lower power levels, but I suspect that's correct. Vampires get a few more auto-buffs; Resilience reduces damage, not pools; Vigor can add damage, not dice.
But out of all three of the lines, Werewolves are the Warriors, Vampires are the Rogues, and Mages are the Wizards.
Vigor adds both damage AND dice.
Vigor passively adds its rating to all Strength rolls (including attacks) and, for 1 Vitae, ALSO adds its rating as successes for damage in attacks.
@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
I honestly haven't done the math because it never interested me, but I'm sure a Gangrel with Protean, Celerity, Vigor, Resilience, and Coil of the Wyrm would put up a reasonable fight. I mean, just with Protean, Vigor and Coil of the Wyrm alone, you're looking at a bonus of +Vigor to dice pool, +Blood Potency to dicepool, and +Vigor to sucesses if hit, all doing aggravated damage.
I think it comes down to the math regarding XP, rather than the pools of dice. But, yeah, it'd be a fun thing to watch.
That, and dice rolls. I stress "dice rolls" because I have seen a ten-dice roll explode into twenty sucesses and I have seen a 30-dice roll wither and die at 3 sucesses.
Probability is a hell of a fucking bitch.
Also, I think the XP thing is also determined mostly regarding who you decide sets the original cap. If you "build a vampire and then build a werewolf based on the XP the vampire spent", or vice versa.
Or whether or not you give a lot of XP to both, or not a lot. At 100 XP, I think it's anyone's game; at 50, it's probably closer to the werewolf. But at 30, I'm kind of eying the Gangrel with respect.
@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
It really comes down to the dice rolls, but werewolves are beassssssts.
I'd hate to steal your (Love) gun, but they can also (in Gauru):
- Gain 8-again on all Brawl and Weaponry rolls (Full Moon 1).
- Gain extra health levels (Full Moon 2).
- Boost attack rolls equal to Purity against targets that stand between the Rahu and his prey (Full Moon 3).
- Inflict Tilts with every strike, regardless if the target takes damage (Full Moon 4).
- Boost Strength or Stamina by 2 per success (or gain 1 pt. of armor or do an extra +1L in unarmed combat) (Full Moon 5).
- Instantly avoid a Brawl or Weaponry strike as a reflexive action (Hit and Run).
- Instantly learn of every creature within Purityx100 yards, which destroys any ambush (Lore of the Land).
- Boost damage inflicted by Purity (Slaughterer).
- Boost Strength equal to Purity (Primal Strength).
- Penalize an opponent's attack pool equal to Purity (Grasp of the Howling Winds).
So, on top of all the goodies you can get via shifting to Gauru, you could potentially have any or all of these. And I'll wager the cost is substantially less than a combat-oriented vampire.
Plus, if the prey is the vampire, then the Werewolf can use his Hunter Aspect against him. Since we're taking about a Rahu, if the assault is successful, the Gangrel gets the Submissive Condition, which requires him to spend a Willpower point and succeed on a Resolve + Composure roll (and get successes equal to or more than the Rahu's Purity score) to launch an attack. While the condition is resolved if you take damage, one strike from a Rahu is usually good enough.
Yeah, my money's on the Rahu.
I honestly haven't done the math because it never interested me, but I'm sure a Gangrel with Protean, Celerity, Vigor, Resilience, and Coil of the Wyrm would put up a reasonable fight. I mean, just with Protean, Vigor and Coil of the Wyrm alone, you're looking at a bonus of +Vigor to dice pool, +Blood Potency to dicepool, and +Vigor to sucesses if hit, all doing aggravated damage.
Like I said above: I'm rarely interested in extremes, but in the end, I do believe it's the dice rolls that determine it.
Especially that one dice roll: Initiative. And yes, both splats have ways to interrupt, so.
@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
It really comes down to the dice rolls, but werewolves are beassssssts.
Speaking of the dice rolls, Vampires have a great advantage in spending vitae to boost their rolls. That much aggravated damage upfront can end a fight before it begins; so if they get aggravated damage done to them that just means they need to hold back nothing for self-healing and front-load everything to take the bad dog down before they are taken down instead.
I think Vampire and Werewolf are actually very well balanced against each other, and I don't just mean it in combat. The equilibrium and specialities are pretty well done.
Yes. And a vampire with maxed Vigor can do truly STAGGERING amounts of damage (and with a pretty good dicepool). But we're talking extremes, of course. Then again, if we are talking extremes, there are certain Rahu builds that can soak aggravated damage and dish out 8-again against lowered Defense with additional damage... I just--like I said: if you're going to go with EXTREME builds, then it's down to the dice rolls.
I still have to finish:
Witcher 3, Rise of the Tomb Raider, Skyrim, and like... two or three more?
But my Steam joystick is finally arriving today, supposedly. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..!
@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
And while aggravated damage is awesome, so are Rahu. Big time. Not sure if I buy into your Gangrel-aggro theory, but we could put it to the test somewhere for shits and giggles.
The thing about aggravated damage is that it circumvents the werewolf's healing. But guess what: werewolves can do aggravated damage if they're biting for Essence--so it's really up to the storyteller whether or not they can do that with vampires (I'd say yes). Plus, werewolf bites are always Lethal even to vampires, and the vampire's Defense is not going to enjoy their Skill bonus, it'll just be lower of Wits/Dex, while the werewolf will have their full Defense...
It really comes down to the dice rolls, but werewolves are beassssssts.
@Karmageddon said in Fanbase entitlement:
@Coin said in Fanbase entitlement:
They'd lose anyway. And also feel inadequate when I revealed I was wearing a Trotsky shirt.
You're assuming they'd recognize him and know who he was/what he did. (I'm also assuming you're not being hyperbolic.)
Well, facetious anyway. I don't have time to make my own, self-printed Trotsky shirt, and I would never buy one (I'm pretty sure if I did Trotsky would climb out of his grave and shove a pick-axe into my skull. Although, thinking about it, I think he'd probably stop, ask me who made it and whether they are a small, independent producer of t-shirts who is only charging for the work, or a major bougeois capitalist manufacturer... oh, Leon, you so cray). I did once have a hand-me-down printed shirt with a Trotsky quote printed on it, but it got torn up accidentally. sad. It was red. And awesome.
(And no, they likely wouldn't recognize him.)
@Karmageddon said in Fanbase entitlement:
@Coin said in Fanbase entitlement:
At least get mad at actual idiots, like people who wear Che Guevara t-shirts but can't even revolt against their parents. "Viva la revoluci贸n, mom, now can you send me my allowance, my Twinky supply is low". Fuck.
Maybe Twinkie person does a lot of humanitarian work, or is politically engaged to champion the downtrodden, or is otherwise actively involved in ways to improve the conditions that initially radicalized Che in the first place. I'd say that person is truer to the spirit of Che than someone who doesn't have the luxury of asking for Twinkie money but who nonetheless is nothing more than an armchair radical who doesn't actually do anything to improve anything. (I realize this could very easily turn into a socioeconomic discussion about the psychological impact of long-standing oppression and why a person may or may not have the time/energy/ability to do more than gripe. An armchair radical is still and armchair radical, though, whatever the reasons.)
I thought it was clear I was hyperbolizing, and in general meant 'people who have no idea who he was or whose lifestyle and opinions don't mesh with what his message was, but still wear his face'.
Or maybe that person just likes the artistry of the photo. (It's a great photo.)
I suppose. And if that's the case, sure. But then again, they most likely bought the shirt, which means it was the product of a capitalist action, which Che would have probably at least sneered at.
Then again, if they printed the shirt out themselves, I wouldn't have a thing to say.
But my POINT is, even if I DID run into someone with a Che shirt, I probably wouldn't try to quizz them on him.
They'd lose anyway. And also feel inadequate when I revealed I was wearing a Trotsky shirt.
As an aside, Biblia sounds awesome. May he still be rocking wherever the departed may rock.
He's probably sitting in the corner smoking a joint going, 'yeah, man, yeah'. He was super mellow.
@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Nevermind a vampire with Protean and Vigor.
Or just Vigor, because having a weapon bonus technically means that the strike does lethal damage; even if held otherwise, having +3B-+5B is still pretty bad against a Mage, who is squishy.
Or an angry werewolf who gets to ignore the Skill part of your Defense when they enter Gauru...
That doesn't even really matter, does it? They do lethal damage. With bonuses. And regenerate every fucking health level at the beginning of the turn unless they are killed. Or the Full Moon 1 Gift -- Level One -- which gives you 8-again on all Brawl and Weaponry rolls. Or Full Moon 2, which gives you additional Health levels for each Purity renown. And then Full Moon 3, which gives you a bonus to all attack rolls equal to your Purity renown against anyone getting between you and your prey. Then there's Butchery --
And did I mention that Renown only costs 3 XP per dot now, instead of that insane amount it used to cost?
Then there's the Cahalith, who, with Gibbous Moon 1, gives all pack members within earshot a +1L weapon bonus on all brawl and weaponry attacks regardless of form.
Or the Irraka that turns Brawl and Weaponry attacks into rote rolls if they take a target by surprise.
Then the Shadow Gifts, which can allow you to find any piece of information anywhere. And other tricks like that.
You want to talk over-powered? Werewolves. All the way.
Well, yes. But understating it reserved all those other things for later, in case anyone argued. Thanks for ruining my gun, Gany. 
@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
@tragedyjones said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Also, to cast a lethal spell in combat takes 1 turn, and a maximum of, +2 Yantra dice? Mages really need to prepare these days. Dangerous and versatile yes, but they did a wonderful job of balancing them.
Yeah. Your lethal spell may do 3L-5L. But if I get close enough, my Martial Arts 5 fist to your face will do the same or worse.
Nevermind a vampire with Protean and Vigor. Or an angry werewolf who gets to ignore the Skill part of your Defense when they enter Gauru...
@Cupcake said in Fanbase entitlement:
@Auspice said in Fanbase entitlement:
The one time I played that.. Despite winning...
it stressed me out so much. I don't think I'll ever be in a rush to play again.
Unsurprisingly, I love this game. But then again, I don't play gatekeeper for my fandoms outside of playing this game to win it.
(I usually win it. Along with CoH and Risk. Which tells you what kind of person I am.)
the kind who will one day have to back up all this boasting. [fist shake]
@tragedyjones said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Doublepost, I have cast spells in 2 scenes on Fallen World. The first, we followed all of the rules, and I rolled for Paradox (I believe I used an extra reach if I am remembering what caused the need) and the second, my lovely Order buddies allowed me to use Down and Dirty for a minor effect.
That ghost is so bitchy. I hope you're playing her making your PC's day-to-day miserable. >.>
@Autumn said in Fanbase entitlement:
@Coin said in Fanbase entitlement:
At least get mad at actual idiots, like people who wear Che Guevara t-shirts but can't even revolt against their parents. "Viva la revoluci贸n, mom, now can you send me my allowance, my Twinky supply is low". Fuck.
I am reminded of the guy I once saw wearing a t-shirt with a picture of Che and the caption, "I have no idea who this guy is."
That, I could get behind. At least that's fucking funny.
Oh, it's "talk about posers" time. This brings me back.
I'm not that old. I'm 32. I got into Nirvana after Kurt Cobain died and I wasn't even that into Nirvana, to be fair. Mostly, my friends were grunge and I was like 'yeah, this is cool'. My favorite Nirvana album is Incesticide, because my tastes align more with ska and, more popularly, punk, often of the California hardcore-punk style. I listened to the 90s punk quartet--that's Green Day, The Offspring, Rancid, and NOFX--and was quite happy with that. But I also was down with so many other bands. I've still to meet another person who owns the entire Screeching Weasel discography, including their Ramones cover album (in which they do Ramones covers with such a squeaky voice, it's great) on recorded cassette tapes. Yes. You read right.
I used to call people posers. I never really was a gatekeeper--for some reason i found the right punker community in my city where, when someone didn't know something, we'd--sometimes just a teeny tiny bit condescendingly--learn them about it. We had a dude we called Biblia ("Bible") because he was literally just a repository of punk knowledge. If there was a punk band who had an album and it had been bootlegged internationally, he had listened to it, categorized it, memorized it, and could name all the songs. He was the BEST of us, and his knowledge didn't make him the best of us--his lack of judgment did. When any of us made some mistake--claimed something, whatever--about anything remotely punk, he would just correct it. No 'Actually...' or 'God you guys are dumb, what really happened was...' or 'No, posers, ...' He would just state the fact, and move on. If you didn't care, you didn't care; and he didn't stop passing you the joint or the beer because of it. His measurement of what made you a fan wasn't whether you knew as much as him or even whether you cared about it--it was whether you enjoyed it. That dude was awesome. He died about ten years back. His funeral was punk as fuck.
Further, talking about posers, I know a ton of people who can name every Nirvana song, own every album, know all the lyrics, and still fail to see the forest for the trees when it comes to the messages that Cobain was expressing. People who treat others like fucking crap, people who have told others to "killy ourself", pressured them to drug use, used them, abused them, turned around and blamed Courtney Love for driving Cobain to suicide and then actually gaslit their S.O., and many, many other things that, if you actually listen to Nirvana, consider their social commentary, you would know are pretty fucking incongruent with the band's general message.
Those people are posers. The person who likes the baby and the words 'Nirvana' and 'Nevermind' or got gifted the t-shirt, or whatever? Not a poser. Just a person.
I don't know.
I like to think that if Cobain were alive now, and someone said "You should only be able to wear Nirvana t-shirts if you can name some of their songs" near him, they would be the immediate recipient of his saliva smacking their forehead.
How dare you tell people how to live their lives when they aren't doing shit to you? And how fucking lame is it to have to insult people for shit that is innocuous as fuck?
Have some perspective.
At least get mad at actual idiots, like people who wear Che Guevara t-shirts but can't even revolt against their parents. "Viva la revoluci贸n, mom, now can you send me my allowance, my Twinky supply is low". Fuck.
@surreality said in The Descent MUX:
@Coin Other players can't just opt to ignore lunacy.
Well, Mages can't opt out of disbelief and paradox, either. And I would argue that Lunacy is a drawback for the people suffering it, not the werewolf inflicting it, at least on the level we're talking about.
If a Mage "can just ignore a crowd of people and do magic with no penalties" (which would be the logical extension of it not counting as a player-level drawback), then a werewolf can "not cause Lunacy because Gary Stu Mortal is just that special".
As it is, you can just as easily put on the brakes on any overt magic by setting the scene in a crowded coffee place, a concert, the middle of the street on an active day... much the same way you can decide a scene is set during the day time.
I don't know man. I can't think of a "player-level" werewolf drawback that can't be side-stepped pretty easily.
In the end, it's all "player-level" unless staff is involved. I don't think having player-level checks actually makes any difference at all, practically speaking.
@Ganymede said in The Descent MUX:
@Coin said in The Descent MUX:
Depends on the rarity of Hallows.
Touche.
@Arkandel said in The Descent MUX:
I've found those who disagree base their objections on mages who are completely bad or unprepared at what they're supposed to be doing, yet the other class isn't; * * * .
Mages that specialize at combat can be really good, but a vampire or werewolf who isn't focused in these areas are significantly better than a Mage who isn't. That's what I mean when I say that Mages are squishy.
Vampires and Werewolves are still hard to kill, even if they aren't geared towards severe beatdowns.
Also, many of the effects that protect werewolves and vampires are natural aspects of being supernatural creatures (vampire's hardiness, werewolf resilience and deadliness) whereas they are things Mages have to prepare and use magic for. matching a werewolf's sheer healing capacity is several orders of magnitude more than the average Life Mage can manage, for example.
@Ganymede said in The Descent MUX:
@ThatOneDude said in The Descent MUX:
Great idea but if you'd do that to mages you should make sure all the other spheres are kept in line with similar means. <-- This is to Ganymede
Agreed, although Vampires and Werewolves can keep themselves in line with intra-sphere in-fighting over territory, which I don't see happening with the same frequency in a Mage game.
Depends on the rarity of Hallows.
