Posts made by faraday

@Arkandel The thing you see with downvotes you see just about everywhere is that people use them willy-nilly and some people use them capriciously. Serial downvoting is a thing. Does that mean downvotes are evil? No of course not. It just means you need to be judicious in what you use them for.

I think your proposal isn't too different from a forum where there's a "flag/report" button to bring something to the moderator's attention. Low fuss low muss. I just don't think it works well with transient content that the moderator can't refer back to, or that it will really help if people don't have faith in the moderators to actually do something about it.

@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

That's preferable, but what do you do in the mean time? Nothing?

Actually yeah. There are plenty of tools already for contacting staff - pages, mail, jobs (+request may not quite be as 1-shot as @Roz's @askstaff command but it's pretty darn close). If you have that open door and are responsive to player concerns, and people still aren't willing to step forward with problems, that's their choice.

But really I'm not saying don't do it. If it works for your game, go for it. I just don't see it as being helpful personally.

@Thenomain said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

I agree with you entirely, of course, but I thought the complexity of implementing something this simple needed singling out. How many people here have lost trust in staff, players, or even an entire game because the line you expected turned out to be argued or even outright told was wrong?

A lot of people stop engaging rather than causing trouble for themselves.

I think for me this comes down to the same old adage: You can't use code to fix social problems.

Either people trust staff to take their concerns seriously or they don't. If they don't trust you to deal with a problem, they'll let things fester or they'll just leave. I don't think you earn trust by having an anonymous complaint system that tries to track creepers. You earn their trust by dealing with issues quickly and conscientiously, so people feel comfortable coming to you when there's a problem.

I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I like to think I've done a good job of having an open-door policy and taking player concerns seriously. It's particularly important when someone has an issue with somebody perceived as being a friend of staff. It's hard, but sometimes you've just got to have those: "Hey I love you but you're being a jerk" conversations with your buddies.

@surreality said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

Let's take this analogy further: say you know you have a food allergy that could cause this to occur. Like everybody else, you have stuff that doesn't agree with you, but you have a food allergy that could potentially cause anaphylactic shock. We see the same kind of warnings as the one you're proposing on menus all the time, sometimes posted on the front of the restaurant before you even go in the door. There's a warning on the menu that tells you: fish and shellfish are prepared in our kitchens. If you have a strong enough allergy to fish and shellfish, even if you don't eat them, you may choose to avoid that restaurant. Let's say, though, it's a restaurant that's actually known for it's beef and chicken BBQ. That's its primary draw and what it specializes in, and they only have one fish item on the menu.

Do you still avoid the restaurant?

YES.

I could say more, but I'm done being ranted and sworn at.

@Ghost said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

I think there are plenty of us (people who approach this hobby as a team-based creative hobby) who run into these emotional separation issues and think: "Fuck, I'm sorry, that sucks, but I'm...not a therapist? I wish I could help but I can't and I've got my own RL to put first, and I wish you the best, but please, please, PLEASE don't put the responsibility for that stuff on me.

@mietze said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

But asking me to be prepared to deal with other people's trauma, who I am not close to at all, and making it my as a scene runner responsibility to navigate it for them, when they are incapable or unwilling to communicate beyond very impersonal slotted in advance ways...honestly, that is a fucking trigger for ME...

Jumping back in for a moment to say ... These two statements articulate very well why I am so resistant to the suggestions by @surreality and others to put the onus on the plot/game runners. It's not that I don't care, it's that maybe I care too much. I feel f-ing horrible for what surreality and others have to go through. That sucks on an unbelievable level.

But I can't take responsibility for ensuring their mental health. That's a hot button for me personally. I know what it's like to be responsible for other peoples' health and well-being. I do not want that degree of responsibility in my pretendy-fun-times games. If playing a game with the potential for mature themes has the potential to put you into an emotional tailspin, then maybe those games just aren't good for you. If you want to take the risk, that's fine, you're an adult, but don't put it on me.

On a slightly different note, I liked @Thenomain's suggestion to have sort of a mission statement so I added a note to BSGU's Ratings policy:

The game, like the show, deals with heavy themes including genocide, war and various other traumas. Anything involving sexual abuse/exploitation/etc. of a minor is prohibited. (PC/NPC, IC/OOC, on-camera/off-camera - just don't go there.) Beyond that, if you are sensitive to a particular kind of content, it is your responsibility to communicate your boundaries to those you scene with. Resolving things off-camera is always an option if something makes you uncomfortable. If you are running scenes, be considerate of your fellow players and do your best not to blindside them with things that may be upsetting.

@Thenomain said in Most 'Plug & Play' Friendly Server?:

@Ashen-Shugar said in Most 'Plug & Play' Friendly Server?:

Still playing around getting F3 working on Rhost, but it's been painful

It's entirely impossible to do on TinyMUX, as we don't have regedit. And yes I know that's in an optional package, but still. I did get most of the way though otherwise.

regedit is used in exactly one thing, which is the wiki-dump archive of the BBS and news systems. I wouldn't really call that cause for dubbing it impossible

But possible or not I have zero interest in porting it to a different codebase, nor would I encourage anyone to try. It's a PITA.

@Roz said in Most 'Plug & Play' Friendly Server?:

although that page doesn't link to the most recent version of her starter database. (Hence linking directly to the latest version first!)

Oh thanks for pointing that out. I fixed it.

@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

@faraday That's true, but how many adult games can you think of where domestic abuse or rape aren't plausible IC? That doesn't mean they need to be right there on the grid though.

It also doesn't mean that they shouldn't be, either. As @Thenomain pointed out, BSG had some pretty dark themes and yet it was only rated TV-14 (yet again proving why, as a parent, I completely ignore the movie/TV ratings and investigate for myself). I rated BSGU TV-MA(LSV) and generally expect things to be in keeping with the show's level of restraint. I consider that to be sufficient warning to people. I think there are plenty of ways to show, as staff, that you give a shit. If you disagree, that's fine. I respect a difference of opinion. I've said my peace though and won't belabor the issue since I don't want to upset anyone further.

@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

@faraday The truth of the matter though is that most of the people being triggered aren't from baby seals. It's not rare exceptions that get players' buttons pushed the vast majority of the time; it's specific themes. Specific things.

Yes, I understand that. Baby seals was a silly example since someone mentioned animal abuse a few pages back. But I would argue that if those specific things are not rare exceptions on the game, then maybe that's not a game they should be playing. It's one thing if 99% of the RP is okay and you want to defend against the 1% trigger. But if you're triggered by war stuff, maybe don't play on a war MUSH?

@Thenomain said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

Almost nobody is telling you to not play on a game because there's a 1% chance for you getting triggered. They--and I am joining them--are saying that there is no way to reasonably expect adequate coverage. The best we can do is try, and if that's not good enough for you then I don't know what else anyone can say.

This. If @surreality came on my game and said: "Look, I'm triggered by people clubbing baby seals..." I would bend over backwards to accommodate. I would make sure not to bring them within ten feet of any plots involving harm to baby seals. If I knew of someone else plotting a baby seal plot I would warn them away. What I would not do is expect anyone to implement an elaborate system of warnings or preferences - the help file for which is longer than all the other policies on my game combined - just on the off chance that .01% of the scenes on the game might involve clubbing a baby seal.

@surreality said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

You can consider it unreasonable all you want -- I don't. I don't because I have seen it work on one of the longest running games in the hobby, and that game has more controversial content inside a week than any year on the average game that it's it.

I've also seen it work for close to two decades now without any policy or code whatsoever. Mostly by running and playing on games where cooperation was expected and slaying puppies and assaulting each other simply wasn't a thing. But if you want to have an elaborate preferences system on your game, go for it.

@surreality said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

That separation going !!!KABOOM!!! and causing a flashback or panic attack is the actual thing that occurs when an actually real trigger gets tripped. As such, if it possibly might happen? Then, yeah, the way you initially put this... they are simply not welcome.

There is a huge difference between saying: "This game has mature themes. If that has the potential to stress you out, then you should take steps to protect yourself." and "You're not welcome here."

I have immense sympathy for anyone who has to police their own entertainment for the sake of their emotional well-being. I can only imagine what it might be like to walk into a movie and not know if you're going to half a flashback in the middle of it. That's horrible.

But I still don't feel that anyone has a right to foist the responsibility for their well-being onto someone else. Be proactive. Communicate with plot runners. Communicate with staff. Make your needs known. Most people, I think, will be reasonably accommodating.

Expecting people to fill out a "what might bother you" questionnaire or expecting people running an improv scene to try and forsee all possible triggers in advance just seems unreasonable to me.

@surreality said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

The alternative is to prohibit players from content that may be 99% enjoyable to them without incident. Because 'just don't play there' seems to be the answer you're proposing, and that vilifies the players -- for essentially not being psychic.

It wasn't my intention to vilify anyone, merely to suggest that people who want to avoid particular kinds of content take the responsibility to communicate those desires with plot staff before joining a plot rather than expecting plot staff to be psychic and figure out what they need to warn people about in advance.

For example: I remember a scene on TGG during the Stalingrad campaign, the PCs came across an escaped German POW woman whom it was implied had been or would be assaulted by her captors. In another scene on a Battlestar game, there was a Cylon attack on a freighter and dead men/women/children were posed non-graphically in the background. Could either of these scenes have been potentially upsetting to someone? Sure. But were either of those scenes out of line with the general gritty rating/atmosphere of the game? Not at all. More importantly, both things were improv, as @Arkandel mentioned.

The way I see it, I as a parent need to take proactive measures to explore the content of a movie or video game before I let my kids watch/play it, instead of just relying on a general "PG-13" rating guide. Those little "Vampire Violence" blurbs are useless. It takes more work than that to educate myself if I care about more detail. I think the same standards apply to MUSHes.

But if someone wants to propose a specific "content rating system for MUSHes" that is more appropriate than the MPAA or TV ratings guides, I'm happy to consider using it.

@surreality I think you're referring to the Ratings Descriptors in the MPAA system like "Intense sci-fi violence" and "Frightening images" which are extremely subjective and so ludicrously broad as to be useless IMHO. They're never specific to the degree that people seem to be wanting in this thread.

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting them to be more specific at the expense of spoilers. I just think it's unfair to vilify people for failing to do so when it's not the cultural norm.

@surreality said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

@faraday said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

I like to consider myself a pretty sympathetic and caring person, but it would never occur to me to apply more stringent standards to a MUSH than apply to every other form of entertainment I'm aware of.

This just isn't the case at all, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_television_content_descriptors <-- more elaborate than what you describe and still not terribly in depth.

But that's what I was referring to when I talked about the ratings. As you say, it's not terribly in depth. That's the standard everyone's used to. I don't understand your point?

@surreality said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

And it still boggles my mind that the same people who would never go without providing a spoiler warning about content out of consideration for others would not think it even more important to allow people to avoid viewing content that wouldn't just spoil the mystery of a happy fun story thing, but could do them personal emotional harm.

I think it's less a question of malice and more about cultural expectations.

When you see a movie trailer, it's considered poor form to put in too many spoilers, but you'd never expect to see a disclaimer (beyond the general movie rating) about there being particular themes that might upset people. Even on TV, an episode has to be pretty freaking graphic to warrant a special "Viewer discretion is advised" notice on HBO because the general bar for content is "mature".

And I know someone brought up the interactive/non-interactive point a few pages ago, but the same standards apply to video games. I can know that Mass Effect Andromeda is rated 'M' for mature audiences, but if I want to know more about the specific reasons why it's rated M because I'm sensitive to something, it's my responsibility to seek out that information.

I like to consider myself a pretty sympathetic and caring person, but it would never occur to me to apply more stringent standards to a MUSH than apply to every other form of entertainment I'm aware of.

@kitteh said in FS3:

People do communicate and pose tactics in combat but... there's too many people, too little time, etc, for you to skim through all of that and translate it into bonuses? I mean if you actively do this and we just don't see it, I stand pre-emptively corrected. That aside, the one thing I've rarely seen is a tactical briefing or even an in-flight but pre-combat 'huddle' where there's a specific chance FOR the PCs to come up with tactics. This item doesn't seem one solved by code, so much as GMing/player culture.

Oh I do when I notice it. @Seraphim73 can attest to that since he's one player who from time to time has specifically asked: "If I do X can I get/give a bonus for Y". You're always welcome to ask and/or bring it to my attention.

I never do pre-mission planning. It's just my thing. I find that sort of RP boring as heck and would much rather drop people straight into the action. I was speaking more about tactics during the mission, which is admittedly harder in air combat than ground combat since lots of Tactics 101 stuff doesn't really apply in space

@ThatGuyThere Yeah after mulling it over I'm inclined to agree that stress shouldn't make you easier to hit too.

I can go back and add @Seraphim73's original suggestion of having a combat/assist command that lets you sacrifice your action to help someone else. It's not a big deal to add, I just hadn't done so because I figured it wouldn't come up very often. And here's why...

Warning: Grand sweeping generalizations ahead. When I say "nobody" I'm speaking in hyperbole based on observations across hundreds of combats. I'm well aware that there are exceptions. If you're an exception, I'm not talking about you.

People play MU*s for the escapism, and that applies to combat as much as everything. Everyone wants to be the hero. Everyone wants to be the top ace. The system already has lots of mechanical advantages for teamwork, but people hardly ever take advantage of them.

• Nobody uses the suppress action, even though it's far better for your team to suppress three badguys than to shoot one.

• Nobody is willing to sacrifice their chance to shoot to treat or be treated, even though having your wound modifiers cut in half makes you tremendously more effective.

• Nobody is willing to concentrate fire on targets to bring them down quickly, even though that is the fastest way to reduce the amount of damage your team takes.

• Nobody waits for someone else to use treat/rally to get them back into the fight after being knocked out, even though their combat/hero luck point could be put to better use.

• Nobody tries to use fancy tactics or anything to give them an advantage, even though the system has ways to apply modifiers for creative solutions. (as @Three-Eyed-Crow said)

• Nobody uses the 'teams' feature to break themselves up into sub-groups for organization.

I could go on with more examples, but the bottom line is ... I don't believe teamwork is a problem that can be solved mechanically. People have to want to work as a team. When they do, the system supports them.

And hey, there's nothing wrong (ICly or OOCly) with not working as a team either. It's hard to coordinate actions when you've got a dozen people in a swirling combat. I totally get the thrill/satisfaction in solo-ing a badguy - I felt the temptation to chase kill marks on 100 as much as anyone. I'm not blaming anybody for taking the easy road of "see Cylon shoot Cylon"

I'm just honestly not sure what else I can add to the system to encourage teamwork, when so many of the teamwork tools it has are already under-utilized.

I would never wish to inflict genuine emotional pain on someone from a MU* plot. It is, after all, just a game. But at the same time, these are usally games with serious dramatic themes. Should nobody ever be allowed to kill off their character because it might cause someone to re-live the trauma of losing their BFF? Should no child ever be harmed in the story because it might upset me, a parent? Should nobody ever RP war trauma because it might upset a veteran? The list goes on and on and you can't reasonably be expected to label a plotline with every possible thing that might upset someone. If a game is generally labeled as including "mature themes" then I think the onus is on the player to communicate things that they don't wish to be involved in.

@kitteh I don't think it's pointless. I mean, frustrated is frustrated, regardless of what the numbers say. And there may be situations where the PCs are facing a true Big Bad (the scene on 100 MUSH against Sonja at the dropship battle comes to mind), so those types of situations can come up.

At the end of the day, combat is a balancing act. Too easy and it's not fun. Too hard and it's not fun. Finding the right balance is tricky. It doesn't always work out as intended.