Posts made by faraday

@surreality said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

One True Way-ists

In my experience it's been the One True Way-ists who have instigated a lot of firestorms outside the hog pit. Because come on... if you say "X is the dumbest thing ever, it's everything that's wrong with MUSHing", that's about as much a glove to the face as saying to a Trekkie "OMG I can't believe people actually watch Star Trek. Yuck." Gamers are passionate about the things we like. And when people call the things we like dumb, we get worked up about it.

I think a great deal of drama in the constructive threads would be averted if more folks would just acknowledge that there is not just one "right" way of doing something. And yes, I'm guilty of it too sometimes and I don't mind being called out on it. I see that as something that more active moderation could address by nudging people to tone down the hyperbole. Because regular posters doing it just gets ignored (believe me, I've tried, and so have others.)

@apos said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Like, I get the whole, 'Well they wouldn't have made a game anyways' but I dunno if 'game design by hazing' is really all that productive.

Seriously. It's one thing to have a person mention constructively "Hey have you considered..." based on some past experience, but a barrage of naysaying or people asking for something completely opposite of what you asked about is just freaking annoying and disheartening.

@skew said in Choosing a MU Server:

I have to say that I still do not understand why no one has set up a "blank" database, which has not just the TinyMUX core stuff (SGP?) but also a package of the most used features on it. It seems like it would be incredibly simple to do.

Well, I can't speak to TinyMUX but I did exactly this for PennMUSH with my Softcode Package (which everybody calls the 'FS3 codebase' even though FS3 is a completely optional addon.)

The trouble, I think, is that there was so much variation in softcode packages. Should your starter DB include Faraday's +who or Volund's? Brandymail or Faraday's mail? Also, configuring these things required code knowledge (because it requires monkeying with attributes on objects and softcode formatting functions). If you need a coder just to set the dang thing up, then having a pre-built code package for simple globals was of minimal benefit.

But this speaks to a core philosophical difference between Evennia and Ares. Ares is designed to be a 'MU in a box'. There are a bunch of things you can configure easily, but if you want a radically-different +where display, or to completely remove the BBS system, it's going to take some code surgery. Whereas Evennia is more of a blank slate. If you like Sparks' BBS you just install it. Or you can use some other BBS. Or make your own. In this regard it's more like the old servers. Harder if you just want something that works out of the box, but easier if you want to go off the beaten path or just do something your own way.

@skew said in Choosing a MU Server:

I'll be documenting my stuff as best I can ... Super easy to copy+paste it!)

Probably worth noting that both Evennia and Ares have repositories for community contributions. So it'll be easier to share your stuff and have people actually find it.

@thatguythere LOL that's horrible.

Not to derail the thread too much about automated combats but I think it's at least vaguely relevant...

The nuts and bolts of automating combat are actually pretty easy. Entering your action, rolling initiative, and then iterating through the actions inflicting damage or effects... you could code that in a lot of systems. In fact, the original versions of my +combat were for B5MUSH (which used a sort of oWoD mortal-only homebrew) and BSP (which used FUDGE). There was nothing FS3 about it.

What makes FS3 unique is that the mechanics are optimized for MUs. There's no concept of "holding your action", for example - not because it's a bad idea, but because it would disrupt the scene flow too much. There's nothing like: "Oh, he just shot me, I'm going to activate my Iron Skin power to soak the damage better..." or "I'm going to allocate half of my dodge pool to this attack and save the rest for the next one..." or "I'm going to try to riposte..." or the other more 'interactive' combat mechanics that you might find in a traditional tabletop RPG. There are also no creative powers, like, "I'm going to put ice under his feet..." because okay, how would you model that effect with an automated action? (rhetorical question)

That kind of stuff is what makes combat systems difficult to automate, and why MUs trying to use traditional RPG rules for even GM-ed combats get so bogged down. There's just too much back-and-forth.

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I don't think we've ruled out manual moderation or policy fixes.

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Heavy policing of every thread is simply not going to happen.

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

since the appearance of civility still leaves a lot of leg room to be a shithead to others, it's beyond the scope of administrating MSB.

More moderation sounded pretty ruled out to me? Maybe I'm missing something.

As for policy fixes... when the bulk of the problem is people ignoring the already-existing policy about keeping the mud in the hog pit, forgive me for not thinking that additional policy is a viable solution.

@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

So we should focus on solutions that we can enact without coded crutches.

Not to be defeatist or anything, but if we rule out manual moderation, and we rule out automated tools, and we've demonstrated that policies by themselves don't help, ummmmm..... what's left?

@skew said in Choosing a MU Server:

@rucket The TinyMUX softcode is continually changing

Yeah also consider... TinyMUX as a server platform has been stable for what - a decade? At some point I think it's reasonable to say "yep, we've gone as far as we're gonna go here". That doesn't detract from the platform's utility at the things it's good at, especially when a lot of the systems are softcoded anyway.

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

That is a way to register your agreement with that position -- however negative or ugly -- without spitting out a "me too" negative post. Not that people will think that way if they are truly in the mood to grind someone down, though, right

This gets into psychology of forums a bit and it's complicated. I won't pretend to be an expert or anything. But just food for thought - I think that there's a bit more of a visceral satisfaction from downvoting a post that's silly than there is upvoting agreement with somebody voicing dissent. Maybe that's just me?

At any rate, as much as the Bartle-Achiever in me likes my rep number here and on StackOverflow and whatnot, I also would happily live without it. I think that a per post reaction metric like you see on chat and social media systems is far more useful than a "you've been liked a bunch of times" reputation score.

@lithium said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@ganymede So change it so downvotes don't touch popularity? The whole 'popularity' metric needs to get tossed on it's ear to begin with, it's complete bullshit.

I don't think you can, at least not without writing your own custom nodebb plugin code.

But I think it's a tradeoff. No downvotes = no serial downvoting bullying. BUT with downvotes there's a way to register disagreement with a post without 10 people feeling the need to post saying: "Dude, you're an idiot". Dunno which is the lesser of two evils there. There is a nodebb plugin that has some interesting rules like minimum rep-levels for downvotes and max number of votes per thread and even an option where a downvote costs you a rep point, which I think might tone down serial downvoting a bit. But who knows.

@tat said in Choosing a MU Server:

There are a few wiki things it doesn't do (yet)

This isn't really meant to be an Ares thread specifically but feel free to toss feature requests over on the Ares forum. I implemented all the wikidot functionality I needed for BSGU.

@lotherio said in Choosing a MU Server:

@faraday Volund's suite does include SceneSys.

I added that, thanks.

@skew said in Choosing a MU Server:

Do you have an example of AresMUSH's web portal/web site/whatever?

What @Auspice said. Though it's worth noting that we worked out the aesthetic issue with T8S, they just haven't had a chance to switch over because their coder was on paternity leave. This is a picture of what the web portal looked like after being styled to match their wiki.

@lotherio Thanks for adding that. I deliberately only included the major softcode suites and widespread packages (like Myrddin's) that are pretty established/well-known. There are, of course, lots of other bits and pieces of softcode scattered around the 'net.

With more folks trying out the new servers like Evennia and Ares, I've seen a bunch of questions about what they can do, what they're suited for, etc. So I made this document to help folks compare MU server features:

MU Server Roundup.

Please let me know if anything in unclear or incorrect. Thanks to @Griatch and @Ashen-Shugar for reviewing the doc and pointing out some errors, and @Thenomain for letting me bug him about his WoD code.

@wildbaboons said in Wheel of Time mechanics:

How do people feel about turned based more automated combat system (like FS3 and DSS) vs more GMed types? (the various WoD places out there)

I don't really know much about WoT, so just something to consider ... the automated systems in general only work well when there are limited actions that can be automated. When you start throwing in powers and modifiers from merits and all kinds of special situations ... you either end up with something massive like TGG's combat code (which was a work of art but had a wicked learning curve) or you end up constantly having to work around the automation (which kinda defeats the point).

@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

(Which, to speak, I do feel a touch offended, @faraday, that you say the whole team supports the existence of the Pit. I'm on record that I don't. But it's not my call alone to end or limit it.)

Apologies. I meant the admin team collectively, not meaning to imply that it was unanimous. Ark had been pretty emphatic about there being absolutely no intention ever of taking away the Hog Pit. So I may still whine about it, but I consider it a fait accompli.

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

What degrees of separation exist between a simple, private warning and a permanent ban?

Certainly there are degrees, but in the case of a persistent public forum, I think that private warnings are a bad idea. If somebody on my game posted an inappropriate BBS post, I would make them edit it or take it down. Not doing so leaves the impression that the post is appropriate because it's still there and nobody's done or said anything about it. It's even more of a strong impression if I, the game admin, reply to said post, lending it even more credence and taking away any possible doubt of 'well maybe they didn't see it...'.

@apos said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

So why not an inverse Hog Pit that's also opt in, but extremely heavily moderated and posts have to be in a respectful and civil way, with courtesy and care to avoid starting arguments?

I wouldn't be opposed to that, but I think the core of the issue is that @Arkandel in particular (and I'm not sure about @Auspice and @Ganymede) really just don't want to moderate except in the absolute most extreme instances of hate/harassment. And hey - I can respect that. I personally wouldn't want to deal with the headache of moderating this forum either.

But if that's the case, then let's stop pretending this is a moderated forum. We have admins, not mods. Accept the reality that it's WORA 2.0 - sink-or-swim, (almost) no holds barred - and continue to deal with the consequences. Either someone will eventually create an IGU2.0 that is moderated, or we'll all just accept what we got and not have to have dozens of pages arguing about how different "factions" within the board would like it to be.

@three-eyed-crow said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I mean I was flagging that particular dude's posts like WHOA because he was clearly just off his nut in a way I found more sad than funny. Not like that registers outside the admins, though.

I flagged them at least once myself, but y'know ... when the guy who did something horrible is not only not banned but the horrible post you're complaining about is still there ... it sends a message. It sends a message to the people complaining that their complaint doesn't matter so why bother. And it sends a message to others reading the boards that such behavior is okay.

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

So, we're all here good with my taking the mantle of permanent despot, right?

Aren't you guys already permanent despots?

@lithium said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Venting is how some people move through stuff and move on. Without that outlet it's just going to make the explosions when they happen elsewhere be all the more messy.

Everybody vents. It's good for us up to a point. Venting in public is generally not considered a healthy behavior, though. And repeated venting in a space turns it into a very negative space. I think it's naive to think that you can have a negative space right next to a 'constructive' space and not have some of that negativity bleed over.

But the mods have repeatedly and firmly affirmed their commitment to the Hog Pit so anybody talking about its merits are really only engaging in philosophical debate.

@derp said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@Apos It's almost like people would have to learn how to engage in civil conversation with at least a moderately measured tone. I don't see that as a downside.

I think the overwhelming majority of people here are capable of doing so. They just don't, in large part because they aren't expected to. It's like some kind of Radical Honesty experiment. Then we wonder why people get bent out of shape and things escalate to dramallama levels and otherwise-interesting discussions get derailed off into the hog pit.

@thenomain said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Your mom.

She is a very nice woman thank you very much.

I'm sure she's quite lovely.

@apos said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

And people wanna post their random flyby criticisms and throw shade without it ever being thrown at them so I dunno how you do that and make a healthy environment that allows people to talk about flaws in games or people without it becoming personal.

Uh... by not throwing shade? I mean, not all criticism has to be rendered with a sledgehammer, right? You can say "I don't like something" without turning it into a personal attack like "I don't like this thing you built and I think you're dumb for having built it and ZOMG can't you even see how dumb this is what's the matter with you?" There are things in this hobby that are objectively horrible and probably don't deserve kid gloves, but the vast majority of these flamefests are over disagreements as trivial as whether somebody likes chocolate or vanilla.

I actually thought the discussion was pretty tame by MSB standards. Go figure.